Ancient Champions: Phormion of Halikarnassos and Eupalos of Thessaly

[Marchegiano]

Phormion of Halikarnassos - 392 BC and Eupalos of Thessaly - 388 BC are difficult to find much history on for the same reason Tissandros of Sicilian Naxos - 572, 568, 564, & 560 BC , Kleomedes of Astypalaia - 492 BC and Diognetos of Crete - 488 BC are difficult to find history on. They're all hated, or at least were at one point, and that's really limited the modern researcher at all levels.

Tissandros, sometimes Tissander, was loved in his day but his people fell victim to a genocide that nearly wiped their entire existence, including Ti's, from the record books.

Kleomedes and Diognetos both killed their opponents at Olympia. They were hated on the sport but later became Greek heroes, nearly gods.

Then we get Phormion and Eupalos. Not very well received in their time and to this day not very well thought of. One was a cheater and the other threw the fight.

All these stories should be familiar to the common boxing fan. The characters are a bit different, but what Tissandros did wrong was be the wrong race and we still see plenty of that today in boxing. Kleo and Dio both took it a bit too far. Both of them were filled with regret after and if you know who Emile and Benny are you have to feel for them. Especially Kleo, can't wash off that evil, he killed over fiddy kids. He didn't mean to, but he did it. It's understandable why he's not well loved and it's understandable why folks may see him as a tragic hero. Like a Jesus sort of thing but very different. I don't hardly remember the exact from ol JC but something like " Don't be bothered if folks hate you, they hated me first." Except Kleo is more to the effect of - I know what it's like to really **** up and people hate you because they should hate you. Kleo knows what it means to be evil without intent on being evil. I imagine those who paid homage to him had done something wrong without meaning to and had a hard time getting over the consequences.

Phormion and Eupalos are usually seen as less than heroic. The Greeks honor Ti with statues, Naxos had so many the genocide and attempt to erase all evidence of his people failed to force him from modern eyes. Kleo and Dio were both named heroes directly from the Oracle at Delphi and had sacrificed made in their names. Eupalos and Phormion had the honor of paying for their own public humiliation as their legacy and sum of their history. I can't tell you much about the year Phormion actually won and that's because outside of acknowledging he won that year the Greeks don't want to honor him with history. Eupalos is even worse, I can't even hardly tell you if he could box a lick. You can follow his parentage, but we already know he's rich and that's all that leads to. So again, they record what they felt they had to and nothing else.

I don't think Pausanias is the exclusive coverage for this one, but I do think his is the best and most reliable. I've seen some others around the internet but their lack of sources makes me wonder how reliable they are were as Pausanias is already accepted by scholars as reliable or at least as reliable as it gets in this field.

Pausanias:

As you go to the stadium along the road from the Metroum*, there is on the left at the bottom of Mount Cronus a platform of stone, right by the very mountain, with steps through it. By the platform have been set up bronze images** of Zeus These have been made from the fines inflicted on athletes who have wantonly broken the rules of the contests, and they are called Zanes ( Figures of Zeus) by the natives. The first, six in number, were set up in the ninety-eighth Olympiad. For Eupolus of Thessaly bribed the boxers who entered the competition, Agenor the Acadian and Prytanis of Cyzicus, and with them also Phormion of Halikarnassos who had won at the preceding Festival. This is said to have been the first time that an athlete violated the rules of the games, and the first to be fined by the Eleans were Eupolus and those who accepted bribes from Eupolus. Two of these images are the work of Cleon of Sicyon; who made the next four I do not know. Except the third and the fourth these images have elegiac inscriptions on them. The first of the inscriptions is intended to make plain that an Olympic victory is to be won, not by money, but by swiftness of foot and strength of body. The inscription on the second image declares that the image stands to the glory of the deity, through the piety of the Eleans, and to be a terror to law-breaking athletes The purporse of the inscription on the fifth image is praise of the Eleans, especially for them fining the boxers , that of the sixth and last is that the images are a warning to all the Greeks not to give bribes to obtain an Olympic victory


*Temple of the Great Mother of the Gods
** He means statues, they called statues images.

Also, I should point out this if after the Diagoras dynasty had made boxing that much more appealing and massive to the people. Diagoras was like a god himself and by this time boxing had quite a lot more than just myths and legends going for it. It had seen its first dynasty and like any dynasty period it is popular and very highly respected. I forget exactly Apollo's name when he's Boxer Apollo, or the God of Boxing, but it'd be around this time that form of Apollo and it's cults would be doing very well. So when Eupalos did his bribing and fixing it isn't as if the atmosphere was similar to the later Roman or bar room atmosphere of the early English and America days. This was very much against God. A very popular god too. I'll probably edit this if I chance across Apollo's boxing name again.

Remember being young and taught cheaters never win? Well...Phormion could have probably been a two timer like good and holy Euthymos rather being only remembered as the champion who threw his second run for money. However, Eupalos, who knows, maybe that was the only way his name would have lasted this long? Cheeky *******, maybe sometimes they do win


Anyway, thanks for reading buds. I tried to make something interesting with little to work with, but I am no author at all. The Pausanias quote is from Descriptions.



This will be the last one until the Photion and this thread both fade into the pages because I don't like the mods editing together my threads and if I fill the slow moving history section with research that's what they do. Into one giant jumbled mess of bull****. So this is it for a while, but the Photion thread is mighty long so anyone interested in reading has got plenty to read.

[OctoberRed]

Damn, that was a long ass read!

[billeau2]

I wish they would leave your threads alone, People don't know the value of cutting edge research... I have a comment M.

its very interesting to me that Apollo... who is often seen as a principle of order, logic, intellect, social propriety, etc is seen as representing, vis a vis , the patron God for boxing. I would have thought boxing would be associated with a warrior God, of one sort in the preHellinistic classics (Odyssey, Illiad) heck...I would even think Dionysus before Apollo!

It shows that the Greeks valued a scientific, technical approach to the art(s) of Pugialism.

[Ben Bolt]

Damn, that was a long ass read!

I wish they would leave your threads alone.

I believe people wouldn’t have find Marchegiano’s post a long read if it had been seen in a paper magazine. But on the internet, it is a long read.

And that’s why I’m not a huge fan of internet reading. Had a discussion with my friends and we all agreed: internet had us scroll headlines, pick up some sentences here and there, and quickly move on.

My main source for keeping me informed is still the traditional paper-printed dailys. Because there, longer articles don’t annoy you. Quite the opposite, in fact – they are inviting and a lot of the info you get actually stick in your mind.

[Marchegiano]

I wish they would leave your threads alone, People don't know the value of cutting edge research... I have a comment M.

its very interesting to me that Apollo... who is often seen as a principle of order, logic, intellect, social propriety, etc is seen as representing, vis a vis , the patron God for boxing. I would have thought boxing would be associated with a warrior God, of one sort in the preHellinistic classics (Odyssey, Illiad) heck...I would even think Dionysus before Apollo!

It shows that the Greeks valued a scientific, technical approach to the art(s) of Pugialism.

From my understanding:

the Greeks thought of boxers more highly than soldiers because boxers could dedicate their entire lives to the art and their body while the soldier had far too many duties. There is a myth about Apollo beating Ares in a boxing match. I think it's meant to an allegory that reflects those sentiments.

I think his beauty is meant to be tied in. Boxer's bodies have always been something people admire and to the Greeks no one looked better than a boxer. Most boxers would take that as seriously as they did the martial aspects of boxing.

The Greeks thought of boxers as very clever. Not like how we might think of a clever boxer as clever for a boxer or clever in the ring, but actually clever. To the Greeks a guy like Pythagoras of Samos would have been just as much an intellectual as the philosophers and astronomers of his day.

Apollo being the god of prediction to me is another good reason for him to be the god of boxing. Feints and baits need I say more?

Boxing was done outside and using the sun was quite essential. Apollo is the sun god. One common tactic was to position the sun behind you and block its rays from your opponent's eyes then, when they try to attack, duck, allow the sun to temporarily blind them, and counter. Bobbing and weaving had a different element to them back then.

Even music makes a lot of sense considering a good boxer recognizes the rhythm of a fight and lulls his opponent into a rhythm the boxer can control.

I think to the Greeks Apollo was just the natural god for boxing. I don't quite remember exactly when the cult of Pyktes was getting started, but I can tell you that by that time Apollo already had the rudimentary elements of The Boxer from the Greek perspective.

If you think of boxers as brilliant, beautiful, masters of the sun and rhythm then you're thinking of the prophetic, handsome, sun god of science and music.

That said I don't know that much about the gods. I know more than Hollywood seems to but I'd reckon just about anyone who took a direct interest in gods would know more about them then I do and I probably wouldn't have much if any anecdotes to teach them.

[Marchegiano]

I believe people wouldn’t have find Marchegiano’s post a long read if it had been seen in a paper magazine. But on the internet, it is a long read.

And that’s why I’m not a huge fan of internet reading. Had a discussion with my friends and we all agreed: internet had us scroll headlines, pick up some sentences here and there, and quickly move on.

My main source for keeping me informed is still the traditional paper-printed dailys. Because there, longer articles don’t annoy you. Quite the opposite, in fact – they are inviting and a lot of the info you get actually stick in your mind.

I agree, I just don't reckon I'm good enough to be an author. It's my hope that posts like this will inspire folks with writing skills to take the information and write something people actually want to read.

There is a member here who is writing a book not entirely based on my research and reporting but enough of it to give me a mention in the book. So, I reckon I do ramble too much but I am sharing everything I know that way in the right hands maybe something cooler than a post on a forum can come of it.

[billeau2]

From my understanding:

the Greeks thought of boxers more highly than soldiers because boxers could dedicate their entire lives to the art and their body while the soldier had far too many duties. There is a myth about Apollo beating Ares in a boxing match. I think it's meant to an allegory that reflects those sentiments.

I think his beauty is meant to be tied in. Boxer's bodies have always been something people admire and to the Greeks no one looked better than a boxer. Most boxers would take that as seriously as they did the martial aspects of boxing.

The Greeks thought of boxers as very clever. Not like how we might think of a clever boxer as clever for a boxer or clever in the ring, but actually clever. To the Greeks a guy like Pythagoras of Samos would have been just as much an intellectual as the philosophers and astronomers of his day.

Apollo being the god of prediction to me is another good reason for him to be the god of boxing. Feints and baits need I say more?

Boxing was done outside and using the sun was quite essential. Apollo is the sun god. One common tactic was to position the sun behind you and block its rays from your opponent's eyes then, when they try to attack, duck, allow the sun to temporarily blind them, and counter. Bobbing and weaving had a different element to them back then.

Even music makes a lot of sense considering a good boxer recognizes the rhythm of a fight and lulls his opponent into a rhythm the boxer can control.

I think to the Greeks Apollo was just the natural god for boxing. I don't quite remember exactly when the cult of Pyktes was getting started, but I can tell you that by that time Apollo already had the rudimentary elements of The Boxer from the Greek perspective.

If you think of boxers as brilliant, beautiful, masters of the sun and rhythm then you're thinking of the prophetic, handsome, sun god of science and music.

That said I don't know that much about the gods. I know more than Hollywood seems to but I'd reckon just about anyone who took a direct interest in gods would know more about them then I do and I probably wouldn't have much if any anecdotes to teach them.

People who study the Gods carefully incorporate the elements you are describing, when talking about any particular element in Greek society. So, to say Apollo was the Sun God and dionysus the God of wine, is a very basic understanding. The Greeks, like most of the other ancient Polytheistic cultures, used the Gods to encapsulate principles that were consistent. because Hellenistic thought became structured when compared to the fatalistic Homerian society...The Iliad and Odyssey where fate was the determining factor lol... The Gods became the principles that dictated events.

Also because, even before later developments, the Greeks had local Gods and temples, and because like human beings, these gods became, more and less important depending on the humans behind them... The bigger deities became less immanent (at hand) and more transcendent. This was my area of study actually.

What you just explained to me makes perfect sense. It shows that to the Greek understanding, a boxing bout was not a hectic, bezerker moment to eat raw flesh, sacrifice animals to the gods, and test one's fate at the hands of Zeus and his children... But rather an ordered event where techniques, human efforts, training, and preperation were the order of the day. Dionysus was the principle of compulsion, drink wine, indulge in our animal nature, embrace chaos. The opposite of Apollo, which was the principle of rationality, order, predictability... One might ascribe to Apollo what the Aboriginal man ascribed to his god when he met the Jesuit trying to convert him: The jesuit promises heaven and all good things and the Aboriginal asks to meet this God. The jesuit explains that one meets God after this life where upon the Aboriginal laughs looks at his sun dial (it is about 4 in the morning) and says, "well in a few hours and every day thereafter I can introduce you to my God."

[billeau2]

I agree, I just don't reckon I'm good enough to be an author. It's my hope that posts like this will inspire folks with writing skills to take the information and write something people actually want to read.

There is a member here who is writing a book not entirely based on my research and reporting but enough of it to give me a mention in the book. So, I reckon I do ramble too much but I am sharing everything I know that way in the right hands maybe something cooler than a post on a forum can come of it.

M
Your research is what is important, authorship is a technique, and any writer can write the book for you. you have done the hard part. I would encourage you to try to have this published. If you don't know someone to author it, talk to me about it... But don't let your writing skills become a reason not to share this research. You have done something remarkable and deserve credit for it. this is a good area that needs research in the field of human combatives.

I also would strongly encourage you to seek out information and a correspondance with either Jim Arravantis, or his surviving family. as he did a similar project in the 1970's with Pankraton. Please disregaard all spelling errors, have to run!

[Marchegiano]

M
Your research is what is important, authorship is a technique, and any writer can write the book for you. you have done the hard part. I would encourage you to try to have this published. If you don't know someone to author it, talk to me about it... But don't let your writing skills become a reason not to share this research. You have done something remarkable and deserve credit for it. this is a good area that needs research in the field of human combatives.

I also would strongly encourage you to seek out information and a correspondance with either Jim Arravantis, or his surviving family. as he did a similar project in the 1970's with Pankraton. Please disregaard all spelling errors, have to run!

I appreciate it, sounds like good advice to me.

I did actually plan on publishing all of my research into one resource. I don't know that a book is what I want to do because I am morally opposed to selling knowledge. I don't have a problem with other folks writing books but it just isn't for me.

There are three different authors writing books using some to just a ****load of my research for their books but only one with the ambition to try to write a narrative that begins in the BCs and ends in the present. That fella posts here actually, but, I'm not sure if he wants folks to know he is presently writing a book.

I'll forward him this message and see what comes of it. He'll probably PM you.


As for me, I'll have to continue finding, organizing, editing, and reporting because my research isn't complete. I mean I can't tell the whole story of the HW champions I still have to skip bits. When I am done I plan on rivaling CBZ. No disrespect to CBZ but they're old, out of date, and out of practice. I'll make a website that houses the source material, records, the history books and journals, basically everything I ever searched out, paid for, or gathered in some way that was a pain in my ass made easy to find and easy to understand. A real online boxing encyclopedia with all the sources and references that back it right there for any interested student of the sport.


I don't suspect it'll be very long now, probably by 2020 I'll have a site up. Outside of a couple of authors who got jazz by my work I did manage to wrangle a few researchers together. These days we're putting together the pieces pretty quickly. By 2020 I hope the source for my posts becomes one, my own website. Then I can be pleased old ****er and sit in my ivory tower

[billeau2]

I appreciate it, sounds like good advice to me.

I did actually plan on publishing all of my research into one resource. I don't know that a book is what I want to do because I am morally opposed to selling knowledge. I don't have a problem with other folks writing books but it just isn't for me.

There are three different authors writing books using some to just a ****load of my research for their books but only one with the ambition to try to write a narrative that begins in the BCs and ends in the present. That fella posts here actually, but, I'm not sure if he wants folks to know he is presently writing a book.

I'll forward him this message and see what comes of it. He'll probably PM you.


As for me, I'll have to continue finding, organizing, editing, and reporting because my research isn't complete. I mean I can't tell the whole story of the HW champions I still have to skip bits. When I am done I plan on rivaling CBZ. No disrespect to CBZ but they're old, out of date, and out of practice. I'll make a website that houses the source material, records, the history books and journals, basically everything I ever searched out, paid for, or gathered in some way that was a pain in my ass made easy to find and easy to understand. A real online boxing encyclopedia with all the sources and references that back it right there for any interested student of the sport.


I don't suspect it'll be very long now, probably by 2020 I'll have a site up. Outside of a couple of authors who got jazz by my work I did manage to wrangle a few researchers together. These days we're putting together the pieces pretty quickly. By 2020 I hope the source for my posts becomes one, my own website. Then I can be pleased old ****er and sit in my ivory tower

That is great to hear. Yes many great libraries start that way. And the new way information abounds gives one so many ways to work with information. You can also self publish anything these days by the way for those who are morally opposed to profiting on a book. I understand that point of view and it makes sense to me. I never made a lot of money writing articles, but enough that it covered the time spent. Unfortunately for me people plagerized my work and could have put me in a dangerous situation lol. When you do sell your work, you sell all rights to it. So...when another company plagerizes it they go after.....You! and that happened to me once and I had to show that they copied the article sheesh! lol.