How Did You Score It RBR: Muhammad Ali vs Earnie Shavers

[HOUDINI563]

YOU made the comment the fight result was controversial. It’s upon you to prove that point. The only way is to show the many scorecards from 1977 that had Shavers winning. If you don’t have that info then why did you state the decision was controversial?

[HOUDINI563]

You need to show scorecards from the night of the fight to prove it was a controversial decision. If you don’t have this info then why do you state it was a controversial decision?

[Eff Pandas]

If you don’t have this info then why do you state it was a controversial decision?

1)The obvious. Fans booed the decision & I tended to agree with them with the eye test & my own scorecard.

2)Cuz I've heard people say this fight EASILY coulda went Shavers way & the fight was closer then the cards.

3)I showed you some info 3 minutes after I did one search for it that supported my stance, but you decided it wasn't good enough for you.

Like I said if there were widely available newspapers scores for fights 41 years ago Boxrec woulda found them I assume so idk where you think I'm going to find ANY scores to support or not support my decision. Therefore I trust my eyes & other boxing fans more then official judges as far as this fight goes.

[Eff Pandas]

Here's more fans talking about the fight from another forum:

RD 1 to (Ali) but Shavers did hit him with 2 great blows

RD 2 to (Shavers) at first Ali was controlling then shavers hit him with a good left hand i thought his left hand shot was good but he hit him with a great right hand that u could see Ali was shook by and could have went down then he hit him with 2 more great right hands any other fighter wouldn't still be standing.

RD 3 (Ali)Ali comes out dancing controls the round with his jab for the first 2 mins slows down a bit after that but starts to attack again for the last 20 seconds of the round.

RD 4 (Shavers) Shavers takes round four for me he hit Ali with 2 great right hands Ali had about one flutter of good punches but in that round shavers was the more aggressive and in my opinion at least hit him with 2 great right hands.

RD 5 (Ali) Ali takes this round came out dancing once again controlled all 3 mins with his jab shavers got a few body shots but Ali won his round easily by controlling it with his jab and flurry's of combinations in there no damage done to shaver but enough to clearly win the round.

so after 5 rounds i have Ali winning 3 -2

RD 6 (Shavers) really poor round i give it to shavers cause he was the more aggressive fighter and landed the most but he also walked away when Ali was inviting him to lay into him if you think i'm wrong in this round please tell me i'm not saying i'm right who won this round ?

RD 7 (Shavers) Hard round shavers dominated for maybe 1 min 30 seconds with 2 great right hands then Ali started to come back with a flutter of punches but nothing compared to shavers right hand and the last couple of seconds so i give this round to shavers cause he easily dominated at least the first 1 min 30 seconds along with his great right hooks

RD 8 (Shavers) dont know about this round shavers was the more aggressive Ali bloced more of his attacks Ali landed a few punches so did shavers nothing special i might be wrong but i give this round to shavers for being more aggressive even though Ali blocked most of his blows but i don't see why i can give Ali the round for 1 flurry of punches

RD 9 (Ali) cant really judge this round because in my Ali box set it starts at 2 mins 30 seconds into this round so for the last 1 min and 30 seconds Ali was the better fighter so for that reason i award this round to Ali but i did not see the full round so of course i may be wrong please fill me in i'm watching Muhammad Ali History box set 19 Disc box set

RD 10 (Ali) for the first min Ali came out dancing controlled the fight shavers hit him with a good right in the last 2 mins but Ali also hit shavers with a good left hand in the last min of the round blood on the side of shavers nose.

So after 10 rounds i have it 5 rounds each then again i did admit i was not sure if shavers won rounds 6 and 8 even though i never seen the full of round 9 i do believe Ali probably won that round so my score card could be 7 - 3 to Ali u decide they 2 rounds i was not sure on should they have went to Ali and after 10 round my score card should be 7 - 3 to Ali and not 5 rounds each like i have it right now.

RD 11 (Ali) Ali controlled the full round landing combinations shavers landed nothing serious till the last minute when he landed 1 great right hand other than that Ali dodged everything shavers flung part from that great right hand

RD 12 (Ali) 1st min Ali came out jabbing hit a few combinations second min shavers hit Ali with good right hand laid some good blows into him then Ali started to dance about near the end of the second minute Ali controlled the last minute with his jabs and combinations and footwork winning the round

RD 13 (Shavers) Ali probably did control the first minute but shavers hit him with a great right in the first min then in the second minute he hit him with a even better right then the last minute was just nothing so that why a gave this round to shavers

RD 14 (Shavers) Shavers he definitely dominated this round winning it easy Ali did go down i never seen no punch it was a slip so it was not a knocked down

RD 15 (Shavers) Shavers dominated the full round part from maybe the last 40 seconds

so at the end of the 15th round i had it Shavers winning 8 rounds and Ali winning 7 Rounds

Back to the original post. Does anyone agree that Shavers may have edged it?

I think he did, 8-6-1

Back to the original post. Does anyone agree that Shavers may have edged it?

I thought he clearly won it. And I think he hurt Ali several times in the fight.

Back to the original post. Does anyone agree that Shavers may have edged it?

I think he deserved the nod, yeah

Back to the subject at hand - gunna watch it again as haven't watched it in a few years but I recall I gave it to Earnie Shavers pretty widely

Your card isn't off at all....Shavers won the fight.

As promised here's my take so far after 7 rounds:

Round 1: Ali (clear)

Round 2: Shavers - Ali Landed absolutely nothing - and was rocked BIG TIME on 7 or 8 occasions - amazed Ali didn't go down in this round - verging on a 10-8 type round for Shavers.

Round 3: Ali took a shellacking for 2 minutes 40 seconds failing at the rope a dope big time - did open up in last 20 seconds but hit nothing but arms apart from one hook - Shavers takes this round BiG

Round 4: Ali taking a real beating - punching a little more in this round but again hitting nothing again but arms and getting rocked again and again in return - another Shavers round big

Round 5: Ali suddenly dominates for the first time? Like a different fighter? What was he doing for the previous 3 rounds? Ali moving and jabbing for 3 minutes and Shavers can't even get close.

Round 6: Cagey, lots of silly games from both and little action until halfway through the round each time Ali lays on the rope Shavers walks over to the opposite ropes and lays on them and waits for Ali in an attempt to embarrass Ali into fighting properly - gives up halfway though and goes back to clubbing away at Ali and Ali takes a drubbing on the ropes for the last minute so Shavers again as Ali again has gone back to doing absolutely nothing.

Round 7: Great round for Shavers! He's obviously done his homework or is getting some good advice in his corner - he's not falling for any of Ali's tricks in this round - more than that he's actually getting around each little game Ali tries and is thoroughly out working Ali - Ali is giving this fight away altogether

So after 7 rounds I have Shavers up 5 rounds to 2 - no close rounds at all - Ali won his 2 clearly and Shavers won his 5 clearly, 3 of them BIG

Second half from me now -

Round 8: Ali looks tired and jaded, Shavers just tapping away steadily not wearing himself out just keeping busy while Ali stands flat footed with his guard up like a big punching bag - Shavers is literally able to a bit of a breather and just tap away at Ali at his own speed - Ali suddenly tries a flurry with a minute to go but nothing on them whatsoever just hitting arms and Shavers laughs at his effort - Shavers is finding this easy. Shavers continues steadily working while Ali is just trying to hold his glove out like a wrestler to keep him off or grabbing as he's coming in - he should try punching a bit that works better - Shavers round clearly.

Round 9: Shavers starts like the last round tapping away getting his little taps in round the arms into Ali's unguarded sides. Ali literally spends about a minute doing the silly holding his glove out taunting him routine but it's another minute where Ali has not even thrown a punch and then when Shavers counters big Ali starts doing the jelly legs routine blatantly giving away that he felt that one.
Ali goes back to laying on the ropes - Shavers is ticked off for literally stopping punching to literally tug Ali physically off the ropes - maybe the ref should be telling Ali to do something rather than telling Shavers off for tryi to force him to fight properly. Ali opens up late and this time lands a handful of heavy shots through the guard but it's not enough Shavers again counters BIG and rocks Ali who goes into the jelly legs routine again Shavers finishes the round landing a huge right in close while Ali is pretending to polish the top of his bald head with his glove - Shavers round again.

Round 10: Ali is back on his twinkle toes again and is suddenly doing well again, making Shavers walk onto some good punches. Mid round Shavers does land some hard shots but really it's all Ali in this round as he out works Shavers down the straight - Ali you can tell is really digging in now - he's obviously been told he's letting the fight get away from him - Ali round clear.

Round 11: Ali is up on his toes again!? Shavers can't live with Ali when he dancing like we know he can - Ali spearing him with long shots - Shavers missing more now and looking a little tired for the first time - Ali takes this round clearly again.

Round 12: Tables have turned seemingly, Ali again in command at the start of this round, on his toes landing numerous punches and Shavers now is the one throwing and missing one hay maker after another for the first minute of the round. Shavers takes until the last minute of the round to get close enough but some nice combos from Ali now- he's putting his weight behind his punches now so much so that Shavers genuinely acknowledges some good shots from Ali. Ali round clear.

Round 13: Shavers staggers Ali big time on the ropes n the first 20 seconds of the round - Ali is hurt and has suddenly regressed to his earlier status as human punch bag - Shavers lands MIGHTY punches all through this round - this is a horrible round for Ali - he is too brave - in hindsight it is difficult to watch when Ali is taking shots like he is in this round - knowing how he's ended up very bad beating Alo takes in this one - Shavers round big.

So with 2 rounds to go I now have it Shavers ahead 8 rounds to 5 and again all rounds are pretty conclusive - Ali needs needs a knockout in the last two or at least a 10-8 in one for a draw...

Round 14:
Ali starts BIG! He is looking for that finish that I have him needing in the last 2 rounds! Could this be the moment!?! The answer is a resounding no!
By the minute mark he looks to have shot his bolt and punched himself out - his effort looks to have come to nothing as Shavers has now turned the tide and is now hurting Ali BIG himself! One by one Shavers is detonating his humongous right hands off Ali's jaw and rockin Ali again and again - the punches are really maki Ali sag but he is fighting on heart reminds me at times like one of the Ali-Frazier fights this round the five and take but Shavers just won't be denied and it has to be his round with Ali hurt and possibly the ropes being his only escape - at the end of the round Ali looks completely spent and Dundee comes into the centre of the ring to guide him back and get to work on him as quick as he can - definitely a Shavers round.

Round 15: Shavers starts like a steam train and go right to work in the 15th and final round determined to go out with a ****! And he doesn't let up for the entire round! At one point Ali seems to hurt him momentarily but he can't be denied and keeping wailing away barrelling forward both hands flailing ignoring anything coming back and hurting the weakening Ali badly with every other punch - he is just not gunna let Ali win the last round - Ali is finding on heart trying and trying to nail him and stop him with something coming in but nothing seems to stop him every other punch is rocking Ali back on his heels again and again - WAIT!! suddenly in the last 10 seconds Ali has Shavers suddenly hurt!! Shavers is gone he almost out on his feet but the bell ends the fight before Ali can finish it and it is not enough Shavers wins the last round widely again!

And Shavers takes the fight 11 rounds to 5 and is the new heavyweight champion of the world - Ali well beaten and looks like a shadow of himself.

ALI: 1,5,9,10,11,12,15
SHAVERS: 2,3,4,6,7,8,12,14

..i have it 8-7 for Shavers.

Ali: 1, 3, 5, 9, 10, 11, 15.
Shavers: 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 14

143-142 Shavers.

I had it 8-7 to Shavers

I think Shavers might have deserved the decision against Ali.
It was close either way.

https://www.*************.com/thread...havers.548017/

Edit: Site is "Boxing Forum 24"

[BattlingNelson]

This is a great story about the fight from the days where boxing journalism was peaking:

https://www.si.com/vault/1977/10/10/...-shavers-fight

[HOUDINI563]

Nothing you have posted shows that the fight produced a controversial decision. I lived through that time and virtually everyone who was anyone gave the fight to Ali. A fight decision is not controversial unless a significant number of experts from that time gave the decision to Shavers. That however was not the case.

[BattlingNelson]

From the SI article:

And but for a TV set that never was turned on, Shavers at this moment might be at home building his fence. The set, with no one to watch it, was in Shavers' dressing room. Ali's 22nd title fight was televised by NBC, and as an extra attraction the network had arranged to flash the official scoring on the screen after every round. Such an obvious edge was not lost on Angelo Dundee, Ali's smart little trainer, who posted Baltimore matchmaker Eddie Hrica in the champion's dressing quarters to watch the TV set there and relay the numbers after each round. And so, after 12 rounds, Dundee knew the only way Shavers could beat his man was by a knockout.

Across the ring Shavers was being given quite a different picture. Near the challenger's corner were several members of his home-state Ohio Boxing Commission, two reporters and José Sulaiman, the president of the World Boxing Council. All were scoring the fight and they all reported regularly to Luca that they had Shavers far in the lead. No sweat. Don't take any chances, Earnie. In truth, it was not an easy fight to score. Ali's fights of late seldom have been.

[Eff Pandas]

Nothing you have posted shows that the fight produced a controversial decision. I lived through that time and virtually everyone who was anyone gave the fight to Ali. A fight decision is not controversial unless a significant number of experts from that time gave the decision to Shavers. That however was not the case.

From the SI article:

Across the ring Shavers was being given quite a different picture. Near the challenger's corner were several members of his home-state Ohio Boxing Commission, two reporters and José Sulaiman, the president of the World Boxing Council. All were scoring the fight and they all reported regularly to Luca that they had Shavers far in the lead. No sweat. Don't take any chances, Earnie. In truth, it was not an easy fight to score. Ali's fights of late seldom have been.

Here is another example of how close it was & people who had Earnie winning (although thats an assumption cuz they don't give specific scores only that they "had Shavers far in the lead" upon sharing their take of the fight).

If you don't see it as a controversial decision fair play to you, but you can't decide for everyone else what is controversial specifically if you keep shooting down every example thats being put forth.

The bottom line is Ali won the fight on the judges cards, but this has been talked about as a fight that could have gone Earnie's way since I first heard of this fight, it was before my time so I didn't see it live like you did, so you are in your own lil bubble with the ignoring all other opinions on this fight.

But if you'd like to score it rbr I'd love to see your rbr take of the fight & see where we disagree at.

[Eff Pandas]

A fight decision is not controversial unless a significant number of experts from that time gave the decision to Shavers. That however was not the case.

Define a significant number of experts to me? Tell me some recent fights you feel were a controversial outcome?

[HOUDINI563]

Buddy. I don’t know how old you are nor do I know your background...however either a decision was controversial or it was not. A controversial decision was Ali-Norton 3. A controversial decision was Pintor-Zarate. A recent controversial decision was GGG - Conelo 2. In ALL cases there were a SIGNIFICANT NUMBER of experts at ringside who called the fight for the loser. Ali-Shavers was not considered a controversial decision. PERIOD. Obviously you did not live through the era. I DID. So I strongly suggest you listen to facts rather than try to make them up. Also a close fight does not mean it was controversial! YOUR contention was that the fights decision in favor of Ali was controversial NOT that it was close. A 9-6 decision is a close fight. No one disputes this. However please don’t make up history in your head. Ali’s win over Shavers was not considered controversial. Take it to the bank from someone who was there.