Marciano vs Liston

[The Old LefHook]

Will Marciano even fight Sonny, or will he retire the moment they show him his next opponent? Will Liston launch Marciano into the thrid row, or will Susie-Q take care of Sonny too.

Watch out if it goes past six or seven. Rocky's chances increase dramatically.

[OCPancho]

The Rock was knocked down by old man Archie Moore.
Liston tears up his face easily.

[Ray Corso]

The "Old" man was and is a great fighter. He studied Rock and caught him off balanced as Rock was throwing.
Also the "Old" man was 27-0 as a heavyweight coming in!
Moore was the reigning Light Heavy Champ at that time too!
He earned his shot beating Valdez (2), Whitehurst.

People make Moore sound like he was through or coming out of retirement he went on to fight for 8 more years!
He went 39-3 in that time.

Archie Moore is an ATG and was an outstanding human being.

Ray

[OCPancho]

The "Old" man was and is a great fighter. He studied Rock and caught him off balanced as Rock was throwing.
Also the "Old" man was 27-0 as a heavyweight coming in!
Moore was the reigning Light Heavy Champ at that time too!
He earned his shot beating Valdez (2), Whitehurst.

People make Moore sound like he was through or coming out of retirement he went on to fight for 8 more years!
He went 39-3 in that time.

Archie Moore is an ATG and was an outstanding human being.

Ray

Was already a pro for 20 years when he fought the Rock.
Rock definitely retired at the right time .

[Ray Corso]

Marciano retired because of chronic back pain.
If you think that Cus would have let Floyd try to mix with Marciano I'm telling you that was not going to happen.
If you think that Marciano wanted no part of Liston I can tell you that Liston wasn't even a 10 round main event fighter yet!

I know that era very well and many of those fighters and insiders became friends of mine in the late 60's.

Ray

[mikeg1224]

Sonny Liston had an aura of invincibility as a result of his back-to-back annihilations of Floyd Patterson.

One thing is for sure: Marciano will not show up at the fight carrying disguises ala Patterson so he could slip into the night without being detected should he lose. Obviously, this is not a good mind set for a HW champion to have while defending his title.

In any event, I agree with The Old LefHook that should Marciano last through the first six or seven rounds, he probably goes on to put Sonny to sleep just like Leotis Martin did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2G3azvOQkI

[OCPancho]

Sonny Liston had an aura of invincibility as a result of his back-to-back annihilations of Floyd Patterson.

One thing is for sure: Marciano will not show up at the fight carrying disguises ala Patterson so he could slip into the night without being detected should he lose. Obviously, this is not a good mind set for a HW champion to have while defending his title.

In any event, I agree with The Old LefHook that should Marciano last through the first six or seven rounds, he probably goes on to put Sonny to sleep just like Leotis Martin did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2G3azvOQkI

Not before old man Sonny Liston detached his retina and made him retire.
Nobody knew Sonny's real age. He might have been 38 then.

[The Old LefHook]

Sonny Liston had an aura of invincibility as a result of his back-to-back annihilations of Floyd Patterson.

One thing is for sure: Marciano will not show up at the fight carrying disguises ala Patterson so he could slip into the night without being detected should he lose. Obviously, this is not a good mind set for a HW champion to have while defending his title.

In any event, I agree with The Old LefHook that should Marciano last through the first six or seven rounds, he probably goes on to put Sonny to sleep just like Leotis Martin did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2G3azvOQkI

I honestly do not have a betting favorite in this one. For a man with Rocky's size and style to withstand the full assault of Liston for 5 rounds would approach a miracle. Leotis Martin was a fluke or a fix. It does not count when appraising Liston's abilities, but maybe when appraising something else.

It is obvious to me that they can hurt each other badly. For P4P, I believe both men punch exceptionally hard. This is one reason Rocky can hurt Sonny, too, and it is not a one-way street.

The other reason is that Marciano's manners belied his animalism in the ring. The man quite literally threw every punch as hard as he could. If you ever noticed, the ol' Rockman doesn't throw feelers, barely knows they exist. When this is your attitude and you are a hard P4P puncher anyway, you do hurt people. Only someone who trains like Rock can punch non stop. One of Goldman's drills was to have Rock shadow box in water up to his neck. You want endurance?

Liston's attitude is no gentler. He has a lot of punching technique, so his attacks show a lot of control. His punches are hard enough to tear guards apart when they miss their target.

I got a unique lesson in the fact that it is no myth that guys like Marciano tear your arms up. I was playing around in the living room with my almost nine year old great grandson the other day. I let him hit me but block everything with my arms. This was fine when he was six. Now I noticed my arms started to hurt rather intensely the longer we went. We quit several times because I had had enough, and then started back up. The whole thing lasted about twenty minutes--way too long to let this little kid beat on my arms. When we were finished my arms were burning with pain. I thought it would recede quickly but a week later I could still feel the last aches of that pounding. If my eight year old can do it so can Rocky and Sonny to each other.

A fight between these two is very serious business. The entire world knows it will not be a decision but will end brutally for someone. The loser may never be the same. Even the winner may suffer damages beyond repair.

[mikeg1224]

Perhaps it was a fluke but it certainly wasn't a fix. Who fixes a fight by getting knocked unconscious for 5 minutes and effectively ending their career?

When Liston lost to Ali in their 1st fight, many thought it was a fix.

I didn't because:

(a) why put liniment on Liston's gloves hoping to temporarily blind Ali and then punch him out? and

(b) how does the mob profit from a Liston loss when he was the heavy betting favorite and they bet on Ali? All they would be doing is paying themselves off with their own money which is contrary to earning the vigorish {the vig}.

[billeau2]

Wow... This is a fight of absolutes, its like me and Left Hook are both omnipotent beings who decide to invent a universe each, with different rules of motion and force, then we will slam the two universes together and see which set of rules wins out, there is no other way to see this fight!

First we enter Marciano's universe: a place where Homicide Hank sets the standards, men with short arms and phenominal work rates overcome reach and distance by slipping and punching in and never letting up. In this universe there is not much bobbing and weaving, this is not Dempsey, Frazier, or Tyson...no but Evander Holy could be here because the rule of the day is to just keep hitting, hit the man back on his heels, hit him against the ropes, and hit him on any part of the body there is to hit.

Second we enter the dark enchanting land of Sonny Liston: what is that sound? ahhh a telephone pole like jab that keeps the opponent at bay, but can also KO the opponent... While Liston is no slouch in the activity department his pace is a measured one, in this universe the pythagoreans and their angles hold sway, as Sonny is able to step in the right place to catch the man with a combo. And while Marciano land the punches come up, Liston's punches come down with the full force of gravity.

The point I am trying to make is this fight depends wholly on which man can impose his vision on the other. There is no middle ground here. Which guy can get the other guy to back up? which guy can get his punches off more effectively? will the initial reach allow Sonny to hit from a distance? corner Marciano by cutting off the ring? Or does Marciano drive past the telephone pull jab and into the belly of the beast where Liston's reach is neutralized and Marciano's shorter punches can have an effect?

I would not bet the house against either man.