Sonny Liston Had Problems with Tall Fighters With Speed

[mikeg1224]

For those of you who thought I made that up, please read the following article--specifically, see the 5th paragraph from the bottom.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/artic...nquering-sonny

[OctoberRed]

For those of you who thought I made that up, please read the following article--specifically, see the 5th paragraph from the bottom.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/artic...nquering-sonny

To be fair, I think most fighters would have issues with a tall fighter with speed.

[mikeg1224]

Fair enough but supposedly not for Sonny according to those who would contend he was cloaked in the mantle of invincibility.

[travestyny]

Jab was like a power shot.

[GhostofDempsey]

Both of the Liston/Ali fights were fixed IMO. I've read enough books and articles on Liston and those fights in particular to reach the conclusion that Liston took a dive in the first fight after betting $1M on himself to lose. He was connected to some Vegas gamblers who had it rigged. Read "The Devil and Sonny Liston" for a break down of events leading up to and after those fights. There was also supposed to be a rematch that would have taken place sooner, where Liston was training hard and ready to win, but Ali suddenly claimed a hernia during training to stall for time. The rest is history.

Liston was known to be able to take punishment, so the swelling on his face is not an indication that Ali took the fight out of him. Not when other fighters had broken his jaw and his nose and Liston kept coming.

The FBI believed the Clay-Liston fight was rigged by the Mob, documents revealed.

Feb 28, 2014 at 4:00p ET

Tuesday marked 50 years since Cassius Clay, later known as Muhammad Ali, "shocked the world" and beat Sonny Liston — one of the greatest fighters to ever step in the boxing ring. The fight catapulted the young Clay to the top of the boxing world, but the Federal Bureau of Investigation thought the win might have involved something more seedy beyond the box score.

Clay and Liston sparred six rounds at the Miami Convention Center, and Liston’s decision to quit before the seventh raised red flags for the FBI, which at the time suspected the fight had been fixed by a Las Vegas gambler, according to the Washington Times.

Through a Freedom of Information Act request, the Times obtained memos (some addressed directly to the FBI’s then-director, J. Edgar Hoover) showing the bureau’s investigation into Ash Resnick and Barnett Magids — two gamblers who seemed to have insider knowledge before the upset.

Resnick, who had connections to Liston and organized crime, first advised Magids that Liston would knock out Clay in the second round. Then on the day of the fight, documents show Resnick told Magids not to make any bets on the fight but to "just go watch the fight on pay TV and he would know why and that he could not talk further at that time."

"Magids did go see the fight on TV and immediately realized that Resnick knew that Liston was going to lose," a document stated. "A week later, there was an article in Sports Illustrated writing up Resnick as a big loser because of his backing of Liston. Later people ‘in the know’ in Las Vegas told Magids that Resnick and Liston both reportedly made over $1 million betting against Liston on the fight and that the magazine article was a cover for this."

It’s not confirmed that Liston took a dive, but it was enough for the FBI to continue to assert the suspicion internally that Resnick had fixed the fight.

[billeau2]

For those of you who thought I made that up, please read the following article--specifically, see the 5th paragraph from the bottom.

http://www.thesweetscience.com/artic...nquering-sonny

Great article. Very apt description of Liston and his atributes. One thing that a lot of people do not know is that Foreman was mentored by Liston. Some of the comments Foreman makes give insight to just how fantastic Liston was as a fighter.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Both of the Liston/Ali fights were fixed IMO. I've read enough books and articles on Liston and those fights in particular to reach the conclusion that Liston took a dive in the first fight after betting $1M on himself to lose. He was connected to some Vegas gamblers who had it rigged. Read "The Devil and Sonny Liston" for a break down of events leading up to and after those fights. There was also supposed to be a rematch that would have taken place sooner, where Liston was training hard and ready to win, but Ali suddenly claimed a hernia during training to stall for time. The rest is history.

Liston was known to be able to take punishment, so the swelling on his face is not an indication that Ali took the fight out of him. Not when other fighters had broken his jaw and his nose and Liston kept coming.

The FBI believed the Clay-Liston fight was rigged by the Mob, documents revealed.

Feb 28, 2014 at 4:00p ET

Tuesday marked 50 years since Cassius Clay, later known as Muhammad Ali, "shocked the world" and beat Sonny Liston — one of the greatest fighters to ever step in the boxing ring. The fight catapulted the young Clay to the top of the boxing world, but the Federal Bureau of Investigation thought the win might have involved something more seedy beyond the box score.

Clay and Liston sparred six rounds at the Miami Convention Center, and Liston’s decision to quit before the seventh raised red flags for the FBI, which at the time suspected the fight had been fixed by a Las Vegas gambler, according to the Washington Times.

Through a Freedom of Information Act request, the Times obtained memos (some addressed directly to the FBI’s then-director, J. Edgar Hoover) showing the bureau’s investigation into Ash Resnick and Barnett Magids — two gamblers who seemed to have insider knowledge before the upset.

Resnick, who had connections to Liston and organized crime, first advised Magids that Liston would knock out Clay in the second round. Then on the day of the fight, documents show Resnick told Magids not to make any bets on the fight but to "just go watch the fight on pay TV and he would know why and that he could not talk further at that time."

"Magids did go see the fight on TV and immediately realized that Resnick knew that Liston was going to lose," a document stated. "A week later, there was an article in Sports Illustrated writing up Resnick as a big loser because of his backing of Liston. Later people ‘in the know’ in Las Vegas told Magids that Resnick and Liston both reportedly made over $1 million betting against Liston on the fight and that the magazine article was a cover for this."

It’s not confirmed that Liston took a dive, but it was enough for the FBI to continue to assert the suspicion internally that Resnick had fixed the fight.

My Two Cents

I have no problem believing Liston (especially at that point in his career) would lay-down for money, but there are two parts of the story that don't ring true to me.

That Resnick advised Magids to bet on Liston and by the 'day of the fight,' Magids still hadn't place his bets? Not a likely scenario. The story would ring better if Resnick had told Magids that things had changed and he should now 'on the day of the fight' hedge his bets. That would have sounded a better story.

Second, the 'planted magazine article' (in SI no less) takes the whole story away from Occam razor logic and places it in Ancient Alien territory. Too much conspiracy; too slick; too romantic.

Maybe the FBI had too much left-over Carbo/Palermo on its mind and was still looking under every rock, but more likely J. Edgar Hoover overreacted to Ali's announcement that he was now Cassius X, and went looking for any story to investigate in hope of discrediting the fight.

I do agree with you that Liston was ready for that second fight and if Ali hadn't postponed we would have gotten a very different fight in Boston.

[GhostofDempsey]

My Two Cents

I have no problem believing Liston (especially at that point in his career) would lay-down for money, but there are two parts of the story that don't ring true to me.

That Resnick advised Magids to bet on Liston and by the 'day of the fight,' Magids still hadn't place his bets? Not a likely scenario. The story would ring better if Resnick had told Magids that things had changed and he should now 'on the day of the fight' hedge his bets. That would have sounded a better story.

Second, the 'planted magazine article' (in SI no less) takes the whole story away from Occam razor logic and places it in Ancient Alien territory. Too much conspiracy; too slick; too romantic.

Maybe the FBI had too much left-over Carbo/Palermo on its mind and was still looking under every rock, but more likely J. Edgar Hoover overreacted to Ali's announcement that he was now Cassius X, and went looking for any story to investigate in hope of discrediting the fight.

I do agree with you that Liston was ready for that second fight and if Ali hadn't postponed we would have gotten a very different fight in Boston.

There is more to the Resnick/Magids angle that would suggest a dive by Liston in that first fight. Too many books to read on the subject, but Liston himself confided in those closest to him that he took the dive. This will be one of those times where the reader can research books, articles and documentaries until their eyes roll over and still not have a definitive answer. So we're left to our own opinions and speculation.

It makes sense that the mob would want to cash in on Liston. He was very unpopular, and sports writers of that era were not kind to him, including Larry Merchant. There was money to be made in boxing with the brash young Clay as champion. After Liston made easy work of Patterson on two occasions, they could no longer get long odds on Liston unless he were to take a dive.

[Dempsey-Louis]

There is more to the Resnick/Magids angle that would suggest a dive by Liston in that first fight. Too many books to read on the subject, but Liston himself confided in those closest to him that he took the dive. This will be one of those times where the reader can research books, articles and documentaries until their eyes roll over and still not have a definitive answer. So we're left to our own opinions and speculation.

It makes sense that the mob would want to cash in on Liston. He was very unpopular, and sports writers of that era were not kind to him, including Larry Merchant. There was money to be made in boxing with the brash young Clay as champion. After Liston made easy work of Patterson on two occasions, they could no longer get long odds on Liston unless he were to take a dive.

Yes that's why I agreed that the timing was right for Liston to lay-down; at some level he was mobbed up. For all the things you said plus the fact that he was at the end, there could only have been a few (big) fights left.

I am not saying there wasn't something going on, (actually I think there was something going on) but I wouldn't take an FBI investigation to mean there was necessarily anything more than vague smoke.

I think Hoover would have snapped at even the slightest suggestion of corruption in hope of discrediting it all. Hoover has been proven to be this devious.

I just don't trust Hoover's motives for investigating the fight, so much of what he was doing at that point involved undermining civil rights and black power; and Clay had quickly made those an issue.

[Ray Corso]

IMO the first fight was legit! Liston's corner was using lineament
on the gloves and working hard in the corner, Liston was trying!
The shoulder injury I'm not to sure about the punches Liston was getting with were a first for him. He never thought the kid he sparred with in Miami could stand up to him. He was wrong!

The second fight knock down to me is legit! When the punch lands you can see the right side of Listons body ripple from his lat down his right side. The punch you don't see when moving forward can cause problems. I don't believe he was seriously hurt but with Walcot's losing his pose and Listons poor acting it looks like Sonny panicked and used the flash drop to throw the imaginary towel in!

Ali was the superior boxer and Liston had no remedy to neutralize him.

Ray