Johnson, McVea, Wills, Jeannette...were they really all that great?

[GhostofDempsey]

I pretty much agree with your timeline!

Looking at the old films, it's pretty obvious, that boxing pre-WW1 was nothing like what it would develop into by WW2.

With Louis coming along in the late 30s, and guys like Pep and Robinson emerging in the early 40s, boxing seemed to have reached a stage, where we could describe it as "the finished product" - or "modern", if you like. I don't really see any major technical "evolution" since then.

As for contemporary writers describing some of the old-timers in such gloving terms, that we today (after having studied the old films) shake our heads in disbelief... is this really the result of writers on the take, talking up certain fighters? We can only speculate how widespread this was back then - though I would certainly guess, it did happen with some fighters.

But I think it (in most cases) is more likely, that the boxers the reporters raved about, were simply the best they had ever seen - until then! So naturally they thought they were great. But if they had been given a look into the future, and seen what was to come, they would probably not have felt that way.

I feel the same way about the writers of that era. Many of them were on the take from managers and promoters. There were no journalistic standards. That is why you see a lot of these newspaper articles without any writer credit, the newspaper wants to sell papers so they will say whatever they can to up their sales. Back then, newspapers were considered gospel and the only source for what was going on since there was no television and not everyone had a radio.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of these promoters built up guys like Johnson, McVea, Wills, etc., just to create a boogeyman, and get fans interested. Match them against no-hopers who were either lacking in skill or under-sized knowing they get thrashed and then building off that animosity and playing the race card with the Great White Hope hype to sell tickets. Drag out old has-beens like Jefferies and cash in on his name. That bubble burst once Willard KO'd Johnson.

[Ben Bolt]

The media often has a tendency to romanticize athletes

I have no issues with romanticizing the McVeas or Jeanettes of yesterday.
They chosed boxing as a lifeline in times when life could be quite harsh to the average citizen (and especially afro-americans).
And they were the ones who made headlines back then.

Their mentality and fearlessness alone would probably have taken them a long way also in today’s rings.

[OctoberRed]

I have no issues with romanticizing the McVeas or Jeanettes of yesterday.
They chosed boxing as a lifeline in times when life could be quite harsh to the average citizen (and especially afro-americans).
And they were the ones who made headlines back then.

Their mentality and fearlessness alone would probably have taken them a long way also in today’s rings.

Well said.

[HOUDINI563]

Fleischer wrote in his book "50 years at ringside" that the rise of the great black hwts..... Johnson, McVey, Langford and Jeanette was the real reason Jeffries retired. Further he stated that Johnson was "head and shoulders" better than the other three.

[GhostofDempsey]

Fleischer wrote in his book "50 years at ringside" that the rise of the great black hwts..... Johnson, McVey, Langford and Jeanette was the real reason Jeffries retired. Further he stated that Johnson was "head and shoulders" better than the other three.

That could very well be. I suspect Jefferies was as crude and unpolished as the rest of them. From what I can see, Langford appears to above been the best of the old time black HWs. Johnson got to them while they were stil very green.

[Dempsey-Louis]

Fleischer wrote in his book "50 years at ringside" that the rise of the great black hwts..... Johnson, McVey, Langford and Jeanette was the real reason Jeffries retired. Further he stated that Johnson was "head and shoulders" better than the other three.

IDK - Jeffries wouldn't have been under any real pressure to fight these men. Can't see Jeffries quitting for that reason.

I disagree with Fleischer, Jeffries would never have faced the pressures Dempsey did. I think Fleischer imposed his own contemporaneous values and experiences (circa 1920s) onto Jeffries era.

Harry Wills (almost) benefited a generation later from a prevailing temperament, The Harlem Renaissance. Wills' support was all New York based, and as short lived as the Renaissance.

In Jeffries era Johnson, McVey, Langford and Jeanette would never had a voice powerful enough to force James J. Jeffries into a fight.

Any cry of ducking would have been buried in an avalanche of 'color line.'

[The Old LefHook]

They were not real heavyweights, other than Johnson and Wills, but welterweights, middleweights and light heavyweights without permanent divisional homes.

Of course, that does not mean they could not beat galoots. Langford might have too much for Wilder and Joshua and especially fumble-footed Vlad.

Former eras' fighters were so good, tough, schooled and hearty that a 60 lbs. weight deficit against a modern opponent cannot be considered critical. For this very reason as I have stated before, if one believes "heavyweights," of smaller eras could comfortably compete with today's behemoths, then it is reasonable to also believe that the likes of (for instance) Sandy Saddler or Willie Pep could put a thrashing on Joel Calzaghe or Bob Foster, which I do believe, of course, since I posit that yesterday's heavyweights could indeed comfortably compete with today's behemoths and since it would be illogical to believe otherwise in the face of the mountain of evidence compelling me to believe the former. Ahem!

[phallus]

That could very well be. I suspect Jefferies was as crude and unpolished as the rest of them. From what I can see, Langford appears to above been the best of the old time black HWs. Johnson got to them while they were stil very green.

to me it says a lot that johnson never gave langford another chance when he was in his prime and 175 lbs. based on the videos i've seen in this thread i'd say the bulked up langford has a good chance of knocking johnson out

They were not real heavyweights, other than Johnson and Wills, but welterweights, middleweights and light heavyweights without permanent divisional homes.

Of course, that does not mean they could not beat galoots. Langford might have too much for Wilder and Joshua and especially fumble-footed Vlad.

Former eras' fighters were so good, tough, schooled and hearty that a 60 lbs. weight deficit against a modern opponent cannot be considered critical. For this very reason as I have stated before, if one believes "heavyweights," of smaller eras could comfortably compete with today's behemoths, then it is reasonable to also believe that the likes of (for instance) Sandy Saddler or Willie Pep could put a thrashing on Joel Calzaghe or Bob Foster, which I do believe, of course, since I posit that yesterday's heavyweights could indeed comfortably compete with today's behemoths and since it would be illogical to believe otherwise in the face of the mountain of evidence compelling me to believe the former. Ahem!

from these videos it looks to me like johnson's advantage over jeffries, burns, willard, and the rest of the white hw's he fought was purely skill level and athleticism. joe louis, marciano, and frazier would knock him out cold, he doesn't have enough power to keep them away and i think the 175 lb version of jake lamotta would beat him too.

a little guy with skills from the 1920's or 30's would beat many of the bigger one dimensional champions of today

[OctoberRed]

That could very well be. I suspect Jefferies was as crude and unpolished as the rest of them. From what I can see, Langford appears to above been the best of the old time black HWs. Johnson got to them while they were stil very green.

I can certainly stand behind the last line here.

[HOUDINI563]

Fleischer was very close to that era. Closer than anyone today that's for sure. His comments concerning Jeffries and the four great black hwts and that Johnson was the leader of that pack by leaps and bounds should be taken quite seriously.