Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[GhostofDempsey]

I'm sure you really know what your talking about.Who was gonna put up purse?And he fought those guys when they were in prime and multiple times EACH.And he was koed legit at 37 and having not fought regular in years.Also out of shape and was still winning until gassed late in fight.Go read a book about the times I think you will have a better understanding.

I read the books. More often than not he is the most romanticized HW champion in history. Have a look at his record and tell me all about his best wins. Was it Sam McVea with 6 fights, or the draw against Jeannette during his 21st fight with a record of 10-10-1? Or was it much smaller 5'7" Langford or MW Ketchel?

Instead of investing in legends, try actually digging deeper into his career, his style of fighting, his size advantages, his own drawing of the color line.

[travestyny]

I read the books. More often than not he is the most romanticized HW champion in history. Have a look at his record and tell me all about his best wins. Was it Sam McVea with 6 fights, or the draw against Jeannette during his 21st fight with a record of 10-10-1? Or was it much smaller 5'7" Langford or MW Ketchel?

Sam McVey did not have just 6 fights. Around this time, it's quite possible for guys to have more fights than you can find on Boxrec. Even Boxrec admits this. For example, under his "debut" it says:

McVea had fought twice before coming to Oxnard, once in Salinas and once in Australia; he had a reported record of 6-0-2 prior to this fight.

He was 6-0-2 before his "debut." Which would mean that he had at least 14 fights compared to Johnson's 20...unless Johnson, too had more fights by this time. It's hard to tell.

And if you are going to add weights into the equation, McVea sometimes outweighed Johnson by 25 pounds.

Johnson was 3-0 vs. McVea.


Johnson was 5-1-1 vs. Jeannette. Why cherrypick a draw in which it was stated Johnson "was the cleverer boxer and ring general and slightly outclassed Jeannette." By the way, Boxrec also stated at the time of Jeannette's debut that it was the first time he "fought in public" or something like that. Plus, before his last fight with Johnson, McVea also had a win against a 32-3 Sam Langford. The loss that Johnson took from Jeannette was due to a disqualification in round 2.


As for Langford, he was known as a giant killer. Though he was undersized, he holds a win over McVea when he was 168 and McVea was 205. He also holds a win over Jeannette when he was 165 at a time that Jeannette was coming in anywhere from 183-200lbs. He got a draw with Jeanette when he was 175 and Jeannette was 200lbs.

It's clear from the way you post about all of these guys in your other thread trying to downplay their accomplishments that you simply feel some kind of way because Dempsey avoided them. Even with a crowd of people trying to rally Dempsey to fight Jeannette in NYC, he backed down. And that was in his own words in his articled titled "They called me Bum" or something like that.

Instead of investing in legends, try actually digging deeper into his career, his style of fighting, his size advantages, his own drawing of the color line.

John already explained to you perfectly his reasoning for drawing the color line, but you refuse to accept it. How about you tell us about Dempsey drawing the color line BEFORE he was champion when he refused to fight Jeannette, said he was afraid of Langford, and broke a contract to fight Wills after a national poll said the public wanted the fight. Your bias is apparent.

[TonyGe]

No it would not.(have drawn a crowd)And he did fight them all(and had winning record with all)before title.Go back and read unforgivable blackness or even Papa jack.Or just any history book of the time NO ONE had any interest in seeing a fight where they would HAVE NO WINNER.Getting title back into hands of white race was ONLY thing people wanted to see.

I don't agree but that's the beauty of discussing boxing.

[travestyny]

I don't agree but that's the beauty of discussing boxing.

Just out of curiosity, what is the basis for disagreeing?

[TonyGe]

Just out of curiosity, what is the basis for disagreeing?

It's human nature. Once you have something you worked hard to get it's natural to want to hang on to it. High risk low reward.

[travestyny]

It's human nature. Once you have something you worked hard to get it's natural to want to hang on to it. High risk low reward.

Couldn't he have fought a low risk black contender?

I think you are pretty much agreeing with the low reward part.

[TonyGe]

Couldn't he have fought a low risk black contender?

I think you are pretty much agreeing with the low reward part.

Yeah he could have but he didn't. I think he could have fought a good black fighter that wasn't threatening to the majority and it still would have done well financially. That's where the high risk comes in.

[travestyny]

Yeah he could have but he didn't. I think he could have fought a good black fighter that wasn't threatening to the majority and it still would have done well financially. That's where the high risk comes in.

Right. That's what I was asking. What is your basis for thinking that he could have done well financially with a black fighter?

Sorry, I think we just went in circles a bit there.lol. But I think that makes it a bit clearer what I was asking.

[john l]

I read the books. More often than not he is the most romanticized HW champion in history. Have a look at his record and tell me all about his best wins. Was it Sam McVea with 6 fights, or the draw against Jeannette during his 21st fight with a record of 10-10-1? Or was it much smaller 5'7" Langford or MW Ketchel?

Instead of investing in legends, try actually digging deeper into his career, his style of fighting, his size advantages, his own drawing of the color line.

Dude you got about 4 people telling you are off on this.And he fought Mcvea like 3-4 times.As with others top black fighters he also fought multiple times.And I doublt by your posts you have done as much reseach on him.

[john l]

I don't agree but that's the beauty of discussing boxing.

That's true at least you don't come back with silly insults.Nice talking have a good day.