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Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

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  • The other alleged $300K offer has been debipunked already. It was another scam. Not only that, Wills turned down $250K to fight Tunney.

    Jack and Harry Sign Again

    There’s no doubt that Wills deserved a title fight, and even Dempsey expressed his regrets at not having the fight to set the record straight. The two respected each other. It was an injustice to Wills and to history. But while Dempsey’s persona was larger than life, control over his career was with Kearns and Rickard. It wasn’t his decision to make. He deferred to his managers for nearly all business matters, and if Dempsey lobbied, as he did to fight Wills in 1922, Rickard would talk him out of it. There is no indication in any testimony that Dempsey was afraid of Wills. No better proof of this came than when Dempsey and Wills signed to fight for the second time.

    By March 1925, the New York Commission had reversed its position on sanctioning a Dempsey-Wills match. The Commission now declared Wills as Dempsey’s mandatory challenger and threatened to place Dempsey on the ineligible list if he did not comply. The Associated Press reported on July 17, 1925, that Dempsey appeared before the New York Licensing Commission and formally accepted Wills’ challenge. With Kearns now out of the picture, Dempsey was managing himself. On his own, with a new promoter, Dempsey made a genuine good faith effort to be matched with Wills.

    Show Me The Money

    Midwestern promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons, who had produced Dempsey-Miske fight in 1920, proposed a Dempsey-Wills fight to be held in Michigan City, Indiana. Dempsey was guaranteed $1,000,000 for the fight with $300,000 due upon signing. Dempsey accepted the offer. On September 28, 1925, Wills, Dempsey, the promoter and investors met for the contract ceremony. The event made headlines. Wills received a check for $50,000. Fitzsimmons told Dempsey he would get his check the following day. The next morning, Dempsey accompanied Fitzsimmons to the bank, ready to receive the down payment. Fitzsimmons handed Dempsey a check not for $300,000 but only $25,000. “It’s all I got right now, but there’s plenty more where that came from,” said Fitzsimmons. Still willing to proceed, Dempsey asked for cash instead: “I want to see this in green…and when you give me the other two-seven-five, I’ll give you the contract. Signed.” As the tellers counted out the cash, the issuing bank was called and reported back that the Fitzsimmons account was empty. The check bounced. Fitzsimmons couldn’t even deliver one dime of a down payment. Dempsey walked. Not only had the fight fallen through again, but now Dempsey was no longer licensed to fight in New York.

    The Panther Cries Wolf

    The heavyweight division continued to shake out; Tunney, Maloney, Delaney, Wills, Sharkey, Uzcundun and others were now in contention. In early 1926, Wills was offered $250,000 to fight Gene Tunney in a title eliminator, with the winner to meet the champion. Wills turned it down. Wills believed that fighting Dempsey was now a matter of entitlement. It was fateful decision. A Wills-Tunney fight may have changed the course of events. In any case the Tunney-Dempsey match was then scheduled.

    Still there seemed no end to the claims, even as the Dempsey-Tunney fight approached. On August , 1926, the Evening Independent reported that a Chicago matchmaker, Doc Krone, announced that a $300,000 check was waiting for Dempsey in a Chicago bank. On August 22, the Telegraph Herald reported that Wills’ manager Paddy Mullins tried to bluff Dempsey once more into a contract, and then reportedly “failed to come forward with $150,000” saying, “We’ll post the money immediately if Dempsey will sign to fight Wills before September 23.” It was all too late. The public wanted Dempsey back, and he was in the ring with Gene Tunney three weeks later.

    Then everything changed. Dempsey lost in an upset to Tunney, who then became champion. In October, Wills himself returned to the ring. At Brooklyn National League Park, a young and hungry Dempsey-esque heavyweight named Jack Sharkey brought Wills’ winning streak to an end. According to Time magazine, “Sharkey chopped and hacked at Wills, closed his eye, made his mouth bleed; all through the fight.” Wills reportedly backhanded, butted, and hit Sharkey during the breaks in an effort to discourage his opponent. After numerous warnings by the referee, Wills was disqualified in the 13th round. Wills soldiered on for several more fights, but retired from boxing in 1932 and became a successful real estate investor.

    Discovering The Films

    For decades, the only surviving public footage of Wills in action was the short, and incriminating, film of his 4th-round knockout by Paulino Uzcundun in 1927. Issued by Official Films as part of a series called Monarchs of The Ring, the 38-year-old Wills is seen clubbed to the canvas in what was his last fight as a contender. It’s no measure of his skills. I’ve interviewed several leading film collectors about additional surviving footage of Wills, but nothing had been verified for many years. However, I did locate several newsreels highlighting footage of Wills posing for the cameras before the Firpo fight. They provide a glimpse of his size and stance, but little else. Then, a rare breakthrough. Footage recently surfaced of Wills and Firpo in mid-fight, plus training footage, and 1st-round action against Irish Bartley Madden in 1924.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
      The other alleged $300K offer has been debipunked already. It was another scam. Not only that, Wills turned down $250K to fight Tunney.

      Jack and Harry Sign Again

      There’s no doubt that Wills deserved a title fight, and even Dempsey expressed his regrets at not having the fight to set the record straight. The two respected each other. It was an injustice to Wills and to history. But while Dempsey’s persona was larger than life, control over his career was with Kearns and Rickard. It wasn’t his decision to make. He deferred to his managers for nearly all business matters, and if Dempsey lobbied, as he did to fight Wills in 1922, Rickard would talk him out of it. There is no indication in any testimony that Dempsey was afraid of Wills. No better proof of this came than when Dempsey and Wills signed to fight for the second time.

      By March 1925, the New York Commission had reversed its position on sanctioning a Dempsey-Wills match. The Commission now declared Wills as Dempsey’s mandatory challenger and threatened to place Dempsey on the ineligible list if he did not comply. The Associated Press reported on July 17, 1925, that Dempsey appeared before the New York Licensing Commission and formally accepted Wills’ challenge. With Kearns now out of the picture, Dempsey was managing himself. On his own, with a new promoter, Dempsey made a genuine good faith effort to be matched with Wills.

      Show Me The Money

      Midwestern promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons, who had produced Dempsey-Miske fight in 1920, proposed a Dempsey-Wills fight to be held in Michigan City, Indiana. Dempsey was guaranteed $1,000,000 for the fight with $300,000 due upon signing. Dempsey accepted the offer. On September 28, 1925, Wills, Dempsey, the promoter and investors met for the contract ceremony. The event made headlines. Wills received a check for $50,000. Fitzsimmons told Dempsey he would get his check the following day. The next morning, Dempsey accompanied Fitzsimmons to the bank, ready to receive the down payment. Fitzsimmons handed Dempsey a check not for $300,000 but only $25,000. “It’s all I got right now, but there’s plenty more where that came from,” said Fitzsimmons. Still willing to proceed, Dempsey asked for cash instead: “I want to see this in green…and when you give me the other two-seven-five, I’ll give you the contract. Signed.” As the tellers counted out the cash, the issuing bank was called and reported back that the Fitzsimmons account was empty. The check bounced. Fitzsimmons couldn’t even deliver one dime of a down payment. Dempsey walked. Not only had the fight fallen through again, but now Dempsey was no longer licensed to fight in New York.

      The Panther Cries Wolf

      The heavyweight division continued to shake out; Tunney, Maloney, Delaney, Wills, Sharkey, Uzcundun and others were now in contention. In early 1926, Wills was offered $250,000 to fight Gene Tunney in a title eliminator, with the winner to meet the champion. Wills turned it down. Wills believed that fighting Dempsey was now a matter of entitlement. It was fateful decision. A Wills-Tunney fight may have changed the course of events. In any case the Tunney-Dempsey match was then scheduled.

      Still there seemed no end to the claims, even as the Dempsey-Tunney fight approached. On August , 1926, the Evening Independent reported that a Chicago matchmaker, Doc Krone, announced that a $300,000 check was waiting for Dempsey in a Chicago bank. On August 22, the Telegraph Herald reported that Wills’ manager Paddy Mullins tried to bluff Dempsey once more into a contract, and then reportedly “failed to come forward with $150,000” saying, “We’ll post the money immediately if Dempsey will sign to fight Wills before September 23.” It was all too late. The public wanted Dempsey back, and he was in the ring with Gene Tunney three weeks later.

      Then everything changed. Dempsey lost in an upset to Tunney, who then became champion. In October, Wills himself returned to the ring. At Brooklyn National League Park, a young and hungry Dempsey-esque heavyweight named Jack Sharkey brought Wills’ winning streak to an end. According to Time magazine, “Sharkey chopped and hacked at Wills, closed his eye, made his mouth bleed; all through the fight.” Wills reportedly backhanded, butted, and hit Sharkey during the breaks in an effort to discourage his opponent. After numerous warnings by the referee, Wills was disqualified in the 13th round. Wills soldiered on for several more fights, but retired from boxing in 1932 and became a successful real estate investor.

      Discovering The Films

      For decades, the only surviving public footage of Wills in action was the short, and incriminating, film of his 4th-round knockout by Paulino Uzcundun in 1927. Issued by Official Films as part of a series called Monarchs of The Ring, the 38-year-old Wills is seen clubbed to the canvas in what was his last fight as a contender. It’s no measure of his skills. I’ve interviewed several leading film collectors about additional surviving footage of Wills, but nothing had been verified for many years. However, I did locate several newsreels highlighting footage of Wills posing for the cameras before the Firpo fight. They provide a glimpse of his size and stance, but little else. Then, a rare breakthrough. Footage recently surfaced of Wills and Firpo in mid-fight, plus training footage, and 1st-round action against Irish Bartley Madden in 1924.

      You posted this already. Simple question.

      How is the $300,000 dollar offer debunked if according to a court of law it was to be paid on August 5th, 1926 and Dempsey was taken to court on August 3rd 1926 for breaching the contract on July 10th, 1926?


      Once again you claiming something was debunked that never was. At least this time you tried to provide evidence. You still fail.

      First you seemed to say that the first paragraph about the bounced check was regarding this specific matter. I guess you gave up because it clearly says Dempsey would give the signed contract when he gets the money, but we know he had signed the contract later according to the court.

      So if you are now saying that the highlighted part is regarding this matter, after already taking him to court, then fine. Where does it say in your post that the check bounced? All I see is them saying that they had the money for him. Do you have any other information?
      Last edited by travestyny; 03-19-2018, 07:10 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mr.MojoRisin' View Post
        1. I honestly think that source is lying. I don't think Dempsey said that at all. For one, just look at the language used. I've read tons of stuff on Dempsey, way more than the average historical boxing fan but never have I heard him refer to black people as Negros or part of the Negro race. He always uses colored. Another thing that clues me in is him saying he's wanted the fight since he won the title. I find this unrealistic because there were no talks about Wills until the 20s and Dempsey doesn't say anything in his autobiography about Wills until 1922. To claim he wanted the fight since 1919, to me, would be very significant and he certainly would have said it in his autobiography. You yourself acknowledge that there's so much in there that is a lie, why would he blatantly lie about so much and expect to get away with it? I've never read anything on anyone that is that stupid. For those reasons, I think the source is lying. It wasn't by Dempsey.
        You assume the source is lying just because it's full of lies and has Dempsey using the term "negro." Bro, we've seen him use that term before. I don't know why anyone would forge that. It doesn't really make sense that someone would go through all of that for a lie that wouldn't amount to anything. What would be the purpose of forging this quotation?


        Originally posted by Mr.MojoRisin' View Post
        2. There's something in his autobio about Kearns trying to make the fight on several occasions but things kept falling through.
        I seriously doubt that. Like you guys have been saying, Kearns didn't want this fight.

        Originally posted by Mr.MojoRisin' View Post
        3. Dempsey did give them a chance. They couldn't produce the funds according to the court. I don't know what Ghost of Dempsey said but I know that the bouncing check happened in 1926.

        There it is. Dempsey asked for some dough, they commited a FELONY by passing a bad check. Sounds like Wills was the one ducking Dempsey. If we're playing that game that is.
        The court NEVER said that the plaintiff couldn't produce the money. I don't know why you are saying that. The court said specifically that Dempsey breached the contract and that the court should find for the plaintiff at least for nominal payments. That's what the court said.

        The money was to be paid on August 5th. He was taken to court on August 3rd because he breached the contract on July 10th. So that right away proves that it wasn't about money not showing up.

        Comment


        • Another lawsuit in 1931! Looks like many were trying to hoodwink Dempsey into a bout without $ to back up such a match.

          CHICAGO, March 26. (UP) Jack Dempsey is ready to fight Harry Wills for $1,000,000. "Ill fight Wills any time, any place, any where," the former heavyweight champion said In circuit court here today, where he is defendant in a $500,000 breach of contract suit brought against him by B. E. (Bill) Clements over the proposed Dempsey-Wills bout In 1928. With rival attorneys arguing over a point of law in the case, Dempsey leaned out of his chair and said he was ready to go through with the contract involved in the suit. "Yes," added Arthur Driscoll, Dempsey's attorney, "we'll go through with the contract providing you show us the color of your money and don't pay off in promissory notes." "We'll get the money all right if you'll fulfill the contract," answered John Kosen, one of the plaintiffs attorneys. "That might be a solution to tne case," said Judge H. S. Pomcroy. Would Draw $3,000,000. Paddy Mullins. manager ot Har ry Wills, was on the witness stand during this unexpected development in the case. "They'll fight a draw," muttered Mullins, "and draw a gate Here Judge Pomeroy interrupted and ordered all reference to Demp sey's offer stricken from the rec ords. ''What Mr. Mullins wantd to say was that a Dempsey-Wills bout would draw a $3,000,000 gate,' put in John Rosen. During a recess, Dempsey retired to an ante-room and Ralph Rosen another attorney for the plaintiff, called him into a corner. "Are you serious. Jack?'' Rosen asked. "Yes. I'm ready to fight Wills any time you get the money. I'd have gone through with the contract in the first place if they had raised the money as promised." B. E. (Bill) Clements wasn't in the courtroom during this episode but said later In the corridor that he still wanted to promote the bout, "I can get Soldier Field for June or September and I can get tho money if Jack will not back out on us," said Clements. Off the witness stand, Mullins said he would get Wills ready to fight any time, and that he still considered the negro heavyweight could lick Dempsey. There Is little likelihood of any further development In the unusual proposal made by Dempsey, but the matter Is Important evidence that Dempsey might fight again If of fered $1,00,000. Wills has long since beenT through as firsfSclass flghter.Sufferlng several -knock outs atithe hands of second-raters after hiat defeat by Jack Sharkey in 1926. Anothel unexpected Incident duf Ing the day was a casual meeting between Dempsey and Clements. Dempsey left the courtroom during a recess and walked into Clements, who was coming into an ante room. "Hello. Jack," greeted Clements. Dempsey glared at the man who Is suing him and walked on out Into the corridor,, where groups of spectators were buzzing with the gossip that Jack might come back. 'Say, that fight would draw $2.- 000.000.' said one bystander.

          Comment


          • Hold on this is another article concerning the same lawsuit above. It appears this was a lawsuit in 1931 regarding the contract dispute in 1926 NOT 1928. As Follows:

            Damage Suit Against Jack Dempsey Started in Chicago.

            Mar. 24. tUP Testimony opened today in the $500,000 damage snit filed by R. E. Bill Clements against Jack Dempsey charging failure to fulfill a contract to meet Harry Wills, negro challenger, in 1926. Se-lection of the jury was completed yesterday In the circuit court of Judge H. S. Tomeroy. Dcmpsey's attorneys claim that failure ot Clements to produce $100,000 In cash prevented the contract in question from becoming binding. Dempsey Is defended by Arthur Drlscoll, New York, Edward Bunne, former governor of Illinois, and William Corboy.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by HOUDINI563 View Post
              Hold on this is another article concerning the same lawsuit above. It appears this was a lawsuit in 1931 regarding the contract dispute in 1926 NOT 1928. As Follows:

              Damage Suit Against Jack Dempsey Started in Chicago.

              Mar. 24. tUP Testimony opened today in the $500,000 damage snit filed by R. E. Bill Clements against Jack Dempsey charging failure to fulfill a contract to meet Harry Wills, negro challenger, in 1926. Se-lection of the jury was completed yesterday In the circuit court of Judge H. S. Tomeroy. Dcmpsey's attorneys claim that failure ot Clements to produce $100,000 In cash prevented the contract in question from becoming binding. Dempsey Is defended by Arthur Drlscoll, New York, Edward Bunne, former governor of Illinois, and William Corboy.
              What you might be referring to is case I've already posted....? They found that Dempsey was liable for nominal charges because he breached the contract. But more information forthcoming. This is getting interesting!

              Good conversation guys!

              Comment


              • The plot thickens! Definitely enjoying the conversation.


                GhostofDempsey brought up Doc Krone claiming that he had a check for Dempsey. Here is what I found:



                B. E. Clements of the Chicago Coliseum club backs up his injunction secured recently in Denver barring jack Dempsey from meeting Gene Tunney until the champion meets Harry Wills in a Chicago battle with a $300,000 guarantee check posted in Dempsey's favor with the Equitable Trust Co., of Chicago. Photo shewn, left to right: W. A. Nieol, cashier of the Equityable Trust Co., of Chicago; "Doc" Krone, promoter of Pat Carr'a Christmas Fund for Poor Kids, who will benefit from the fight funds; John F. Gordon, fight promoter, and B. E. Clements, president Chicago Coliseum club (shown presenting check to bank cashier).

                https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/117171729/

                So after the injunction, did they come through with their promise? Note that this was a guarantee check, not a personal check, which would mean that it was guaranteed to be paid by the bank.


                This was reported in a few newspapers. This is getting really interesting. Happy that you guys are finally trying to back up your information with some real evidence. How do you come back from this one?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Anthony342 View Post
                  Love your Vinnie Jones pic. Saw him in an episode of Psych recently and he's also a regular on the new ABC series Deception.
                  Oh yeah? Man, I rarely watch any new shows these days. I'll have to check them out. Vinnie's always great! I especially like him as Bullet Tooth Tony though, obviously.

                  Comment


                  • Breaking News: Wills ducks Dempsey in '31

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by travestyny View Post
                      You assume the source is lying just because it's full of lies and has Dempsey using the term "negro." Bro, we've seen him use that term before. I don't know why anyone would forge that. It doesn't really make sense that someone would go through all of that for a lie that wouldn't amount to anything. What would be the purpose of forging this quotation?
                      Yes, the source is lying because it has so many easily disprovable statements in it that everyone would have been in an uproar over it. It's unexplainably dumb I've never seen a source full of so many lies. The language the source claims Dempsey used does not match his other language anyway. Wasn't Dempsey. Where did you get this source anyway?


                      Originally posted by travestyny View Post
                      I seriously doubt that. Like you guys have been saying, Kearns didn't want this fight.
                      I don't. It's from the same source that said Kearns didn't want the fight. Kearns didn't want the fight because it was mixed race but he was also being urged by many to put on the fight. There was also just as many people telling him not to put him on. This entire situation isn't just black and white (no pun intended). You're looking for a straight up answer of who ducked who or trying to pin it on one specific thing as to why the fight never happened. The real answer is there are a million and one reasons why this fight never happened. Many members of the public didn't want it, the government forbid it, Harry Wills manager was a pain in the ass and difficult to deal with from what I've read, Wills was asking for a very large sum, Rickard was scared of promoting a mixed-race bout and absolutely refused to go near it as did every major promoter in the country, there were plenty of attempts at making this fight from 1922 to 1926 ALL failed for one reason or another, promoters who did attempt to put the fight on couldn't come up with the money, there were other fights that could make more money and were much easier to make like the Tunney fight for example.

                      Overall I feel like your being too harsh on Dempsey. What do you expect him to do? There is only so much say a fighter can have in negotiations he either agrees or doesn't. He signs the doted line or he doesn't.

                      Let's be on the level here with each other. Is your intention to make Dempsey look like a racist that ducked Langford, Jeanette, McVey, Johnson, and Wills? In all honesty that's 100% what you're putting forth. Don't come back with the "Oh well if that's what you conclude from the sources then that's on you". I find that your sources are unreliable too. Seems like you dug into some trash bin to find them especially the ones with no name on them for an author. The ones that are claiming that Dempsey said something are the worst too. I don't trust those for a second. Newspapermen are NOTORIOUS for misquoting people and outright lying. Their goal is to make a profit and stir up public interest. Not to report the facts necessarily.

                      Originally posted by travestyny View Post
                      The court NEVER said that the plaintiff couldn't produce the money. I don't know why you are saying that. The court said specifically that Dempsey breached the contract and that the court should find for the plaintiff at least for nominal payments. That's what the court said.
                      What the court says isn't what always happened. The courts found OJ innocent but we all know he was guilty as hell.

                      Dempsey never took them to court over the bad check so it wouldn't have came up.

                      Originally posted by travestyny View Post
                      The money was to be paid on August 5th. He was taken to court on August 3rd because he breached the contract on July 10th. So that right away proves that it wasn't about money not showing up.
                      That was only 10 days before the fight was supposed to be put on right? What was going to stop the promoters from making up some excuse at the last minute for why they didn't have the money so Dempsey would go on with the fight and they could renig and not pay him. You realize that happened all the time back then right? It wasn't uncommon for promoters, managers, fighters, etc to sign contracts that they had no intention of seeing through. It wasn't always as simple as taking them to court because according to you Dempsey is to blame and he still got off pretty much scot free.

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