Why Does Jack Johnson Get a Pass on Opposition while Marciano Does Not?

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnson also wasn't known for his chin. He was KO'd six times in his career and once by a guy named Joe Choynski who weighed 168 pounds. Johnson had a habit of relying on reflexes and would often try to snuff an opponents punch with his glove while moving straight backwards. This isn't bad for an occasional jab if you want to parry off the jab and counter, but you cannot use that defense if a fighter is throwing combinations or multiple punches.

[The Old LefHook]

That ring appears to have five or six sides and is irregularly shaped. It cannot be any larger than a 12x12 square ring would be, and I think it is more like an 11x11.

[travestyny]

Rough House Wilson is a good name, not bad, not bad, but IMO the prize still goes to 'Mysterious Billy Smith'

Me thinks, that some of the best names we come across (like Rough House Wilson) end up just being monikers the newspapers attach to an unknown fighter. Wilson had only two fights for a career record of 0-2, and it's even possible it wasn't the same guy both times.

You run into a lot of Kid Chicago(s), Young Casey(s), and Coca Cola Kid(s), often with 0-1 records. And needless to say you can imagine how many "Battling(s)" there are. LOL

Johnson even fought one guy named "Cherokee" - just Cherokee, whose record of course was 0-1.

Many of these guys, I would bet, probably fought multiple times but under different names each time.

Now on the other hand Mysterious Billy Smith not only had a serious career 80+ fights but often got himself into the newspapers for other (not so good reasons) as well.

I have been collecting some of the better names.

Haha! You have a lot at knowledge about such things, bro! That’s really cool! I’ve been noticing some similar “nicknames” as well. Was wondering about that!

[travestyny]

Two things buddy, it still the same situation, Dempsey would be a fool to take a tough fight at the last minute (literally the last minute as he was stepping into the ring he found out they switched opponents)

Why do you feel Dempsey (or any fighter) had an obligation to take a fight with a last minute switch? Do you think fighters should be treated in that manner for the convenience of others?

An secondly if you read it closely the "I didn't agree to fight a color boy" quote is the newspaper quoting Kearns quoting Dempsey, for what ever that's worth.

Well I’m not saying he had an obligation to do so, but doesn’t it seem odd that they would fight ANY white challenger, but not a “colored boy.” I know Kearns wasn’t down with it but it seems Dempsey could have made that decision himself.

As for the quote, my first thought when I read it was that it was Kearns talking himself. I was a bit sleepy when I first read it and I know Kearns used to talk in the first person like that. Then I read it again awhile later and realized it’s not Kearns, but Dempsey. And it’s not Kearns even giving the quote, it’s John B. Kennedy. But the thing is they worked on the article together. So unless he’s lying for no reason and trying to hurt Dempsey, whom he did the interview with and wanted to succeed... He had just stated that those close to Dempsey didn’t want a punch to spoil Dempsey’s career, and said it was he who told Dempsey “Box no one but Bonds.” If you clink the link, it makes it clearer.

Also, Dempsey himself is given credit for the article.

[travestyny]

My favorite one is where Dempsey traveled out to Chicago in the spring of '22 to watch his sparing partner Bill Tate battle Harry Wills. Here Dempsey is quoted as saying if 'Bill proves himself a better man [against Wills] he deserves consideration.' Now what the hell is that suppose to mean, his 'colored' sparring partner yes, but Wills no? What logic?

Ha. Man I just don’t get it. Well, I mean I do get it with the color line and all, but you know. Still hard to wrap your head around it sometimes.

I’ve been looking a bit into Tate because I found it interesting that 20 year old Tate with 26 fights fought Langford but 21 year old Dempsey with 26 fights wouldn’t. Tate actually got a draw and a win, but his record wasn’t so stellar. I wish there were more film back then!

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Hey buddy, you are hauling water again for story that may or may not be true; you need to show the proof not just say 'look it up.'

I only know of an encounter with Wills, ringside at a benefit fight night at the Garden, where NY Commissioner Muldoon had already disrespected Dempsey by refusing to introduce him to the crowd. (NYSAC was pushing for a Wills-Dempsey fight; Muldoon was connected to Tammany, and Tammany owned part of Wills.)

Between fights Wills made his way down to ringside from the cheap seats and reached out to shake Dempsey's hand. As Wills made his way down the crowd cheered, when Dempsey rose to shake hands the crowd booed. This humiliated Dempsey who blamed Wills, insuring that Wills would not get the '26 title shot that went to Tunney. Before that night it may, or may not, have been a 'color line' thing with Dempsey, but after that night it became personal***; Dempsey never forgave Wills. (Who may very well have been innocent in his actions.)

No clue as to what story you are talking of . . . never heard of an encounter with Joe Jeanette. Jeanette did work (a little) with Carpentier in '21 but never heard of any Dempsey encounter. Would like to read it.

*** Back in '22 any mention of a Wills fight always came with the 'concerns about a mixed bout.' After the Garden indecent in '25 Dempsey called out Wills in the newspaper directly, stating he would never fight him, no mention of color, making it all personal.

Great history there, man. I never knew any of that. Thanks!!

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Thanks for the post regarding Jeanette. I think we are seeing different things here. You see Dempsey fleeing the ring in fear? The way the story reads to me, Dempsey was pissed he was being set-up for a tougher fight than he signed for; I would have walked too, wouldn't you? I am asking, under those circumstances, if you were Dempsey, would you have taken the fight?

I have to agree here. This definitely sounds like a set-up. Dempsey didn't know he would be fighting Jeanette and had been preparing for the other guy. Jeanette could have very well be preparing for a while for Dempsey. If anything, this shows fear and anxiety on either Jeanette's part or that of his promoter. Any kind of sneaky **** like that spells and lack of confidence on Jeanette- not Dempsey. If they really wanted the fight, they shouldn't have been sneaky about it.

[travestyny]

I have to agree here. This definitely sounds like a set-up. Dempsey didn't know he would be fighting Jeanette and had been preparing for the other guy. Jeanette could have very well be preparing for a while for Dempsey. If anything, this shows fear and anxiety on either Jeanette's part or that of his promoter. Any kind of sneaky **** like that spells and lack of confidence on Jeanette- not Dempsey. If they really wanted the fight, they shouldn't have been sneaky about it.

I don’t think it was ever confirmed that it was a set up. But what is clear is that Dempsey stated himself that he would fight any white man, but didn’t agree to a “colored boy.”

So if this were a white man who set him up, he would have gone along with it. That tells the tale.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

"The funny thing about Langford is that he's half-blind, and he comes to Doc Kearns [manager of heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey] in the '20s -- and remember, Sam Langford has been fighting since the aughts -- and he wants to fight Dempsey. And Doc Kearns says, 'Sam, we were looking for somebody easier.'

"He was half-blind, he was a goddamned middleweight, and he was that good."

This just sounds like Kearns was being complementary (while saying no) to the old fighter. I don't think Kearns words should be interpreted in the manner you are suggesting.

This does happen. Would be like Sergio Martinez looking for a GGG fight after the Cotto loss. It's like, "Look, you're past it and this guy's the best. It wouldn't be a fight." At that point, anyway.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

I don’t think it was ever confirmed that it was a set up. But what is clear is that Dempsey stated himself that he would fight any white man, but didn’t agree to a “colored boy.”

So if this were a white man who set him up, he would have gone along with it. That tells the tale.

All due respect, I think you're making this too much about race. It's very simple. If a fighter shows up to find one guy and another guy is thrown into his place, it's very suspicious. Tommy Morrison fought Tim Tomashek when his opponent fell through, true enough. However, Tim Tomashek was not a highly touted heavyweight either. he was munching on a hot dog in the audience and possibly drinking a beer. Haha. I can't blame Dempsey for pulling out when a guy just shows up like that. I honestly don't believe any other heavyweight in history would have taken such a fight.