scale the greats 1-10

[Yogi]

with the tucker fight again. how can u connect when ppl r running from him. how many fighter do u see running from there opponents nowadays or before not a whole lot.well i guess with the tucker fight it was a tryin to get in and land some shots match but still he did what he could with the limited tools that tyson had.and i see your average of punches by a hw. but again ppl ran from tyson like a ***** so its sorta unfair in tyson's part. right or wrong?

No it's unfair to give Tyson credit for a high punchrate in a twelve round fight when he never once showed that he had that quality.

And Tucker fought Tyson similiar to how he fought other fighters...His whole game in every other fight that I've seen from him was to use his footwork, jab, lead staight rights, and fairly quick combinations when his opponent got within mid range, as well as the clinch when a fighter got inside of the range he wanted. That was his game and even though he went more into a survival mode over the last half of the fight, he still didn't deviate much from what got him to that level in the first place. He clinched a good amunt in that fight (most noticable over the last five or so rounds), as did other opponents of Tyson's...but Tyson was always quite willing to accept the clinches himself, and there were enough times when he initiated the clinching with his opponents. He didn't nearly work as hard in there as did other fighters like Frazier, Marciano, etc., who at least made the continuous efforts to punch while their opponents tried clinching them and they RARELY ever accepted the clinch as much as Tyson did.

[Verstyle]

marciano is better than ya boy tyson.

yeah sure kid go eat a popsicle

[K-DOGG]

Okay...here's my take:

Muhammad Ali

speed=10
power=6
skill=8
defense=7
stamina=9
chin=9
heart=10


Joe Louis

speed=8
power=8
skill=10
defense=8
stamina=9
chin=6
heart=10

Rocky Marciano

speed=4
power=10
skill=7
defense=8
stamina=10
chin=9
heart=10

Larry Holmes

speed=9
power=6
skill=10
defense=8
chin= 8
stamina=9
heart=10

Jack Dempsey

speed= 9
power= 8
skill= 8
defense= 8
stamina= 7
heart= 10

Jack Johnson

speed= 8
power=8
skill= 10
stamina=10
chin= 8
heart=8

Joe Frazier

speed= 7
power= 8
skill= 8
stamina= 9
chin= 7
heart= 10



Mike Tyson

speed=10
power=9
skill=8
defense=8
stamina=7
chin= 9
heart=7


Incidentally, I like the "playing cards" idea that Brassangel came up with.

[Verstyle]

Okay...here's my take:

Muhammad Ali

speed=10
power=6
skill=8
defense=7
stamina=9
chin=9
heart=10


Joe Louis

speed=8
power=8
skill=10
defense=8
stamina=9
chin=6
heart=10

Rocky Marciano

speed=4
power=10
skill=7
defense=8
stamina=10
chin=9
heart=10

Larry Holmes

speed=9
power=6
skill=10
defense=8
chin= 8
stamina=9
heart=10

Jack Dempsey

speed= 9
power= 8
skill= 8
defense= 8
stamina= 7
heart= 10

Jack Johnson

speed= 8
power=8
skill= 10
stamina=10
chin= 8
heart=8

Joe Frazier

speed= 7
power= 8
skill= 8
stamina= 9
chin= 7
heart= 10



Mike Tyson

speed=10
power=9
skill=8
defense=8
stamina=7
chin= 9
heart=7


Incidentally, I like the "playing cards" idea that Brassangel came up with.

u have tyson's perfect

[butterfly1964]

marciano is better than ya boy tyson.

Ahahahahaha!! No he's not! Ahahahahahahahaha!!!

[hellfire508]

These are all ratings for a heavyweight, obviously. And I assume by speed you mean handspeed? Defense has to include reflexes. Skills can't be measured IMO... but I'll try your system.

Muhammad Ali

Speed = 10
Power = 7
Skill = ? (how can you measure skill)?
Defense = 8.5 (reflexes are defense)
Stamina = 9
Chin = 9
Heart = 10

Joe Louis

Speed = 8.5
Power = 9
Skill = ?
Defense = 8
Stamina = 8.5
Chin = 7
Heart = 8.5

Rocky Maricano

Speed = 5.5
Power = 9
Skill = ?
Defense = 6.5
Stamina = 10
Chin = 9
Heart = 9.5

Mike Tyson

Speed = 9
Power = 9
Skill = ?
Defense = 8
Stamina = 7
Chin = 8.5
Heart = 5.5

Larry Holmes

Speed = 9
Power = 7
Skill = ?
Defense = 8
Chin = 8.5
Stamina = 9
Heart = 9

Jack Dempsey

Speed = 8.5
Power = 9
Skill = ?
Defense = 8
Stamina = 8.5
Chin = 7.5
Heart = 9

Jack Johnson

Speed = 8
Power = 7.5
Skill = ?
Stamina = 9 (Fought more rounds, less workrate).
Chin = 8
Heart = 8

Joe Frazier

Speed = 8
Power = 9
Skill = ?
Stamina = 10
Chin = 8.5
Heart= 10

George Foreman

Speed = 7
Power = 10
Skill = ?
Stamina = 6.5
Chin = 9
Heart = 9.5 (2nd career)

Lennox Lewis

Speed = 7.5
Power = 9.5
Skill = ?
Stamina = 7
Chin = 6.5
Heart = 7

Sonny Liston

Speed = 7.5
Power = 9.5
Skill = ?
Stamina = 8
Chin = 8.5
Heart = 7.5

Evander Holyfield

Speed = 8.5
Power = 7
Skill = ?
Stamina = 9
Chin = 9.5
Heart = 10

[Heckler]

I would probably give him (Tyson) about a 6-7 for stamina, simply because his longevity wasn't given too many opportunities to develop itself. Blasting people out early shows an incredible workrate, regardless of punch output; although many people on this website will tell you that, because of the punch numbers, he wasn't working hard. That's a load of BS seeing as how he demolished most opponents with fewer punches than those who threw two or three times as many. He put incredible amounts of effort into his workrate, causing the smart opponents to hug, hold, and run in the mid-to-late rounds with the hopes of tiring him out. Since Tyson didn't get too many opportunities to overcome this inevitibility, I will say that he probably slowed later on.

There are a few examples, however, like against Ruddock, where Tyson displayed good stamina.

Some more charts:

Muhammad Ali
speed=10 I think reflexes and fluidity were the big contributers here.
power=6
skill=8 Less orthodox than say, Holmes, but great improvisational skills.
defense=7 While his defense was flawed tactically, he was difficult to hit.
chin=9 Had one of the best ever in his extended career.
heart=8 Tough one; he did want to quit a few times, but always had it when it counted.
stamina=8

Joe Louis
speed=7 Quick, accurate punches, but slow footspeed.
power=8 Power to stun, enough KO when it mattered.
skill=10 Perhaps the most developed boxing mind ever.
defense=8.5 That low left hand keeps this below 9.
chin=7 Got rocked a few times, but solid (vs. Marciano).
heart=9 After 20+ title defenses and he still takes on all comers; most people wouldn't agree with this, but I think he deserves it.
stamina=8

Larry Holmes
speed=9
power=7 Had a zippier jab than Ali.
skill=9
defense=8
chin=8
heart=8
stamina=9

Rocky Marciano
speed=6
power=9.5 Pound for pound it's a 10.
skill=7 Trained harder than anyone, but wasn't too sharp.
defense=7 Got hit a lot.
chin=9 Never got KO'd.
heart=9 Always came back.
stamina=10 Could punch until the cows came home.

George Foreman
speed=7
power=10 Can we put 11?
skill=7.5 Displayed great skill earlier in career.
defense=7 Relied more on offense.
chin=7.5 Took some hefty poundings without scarring.
heart=7 Gave up in first career; this changed later on.
stamina=6.5 Punched himself out pretty early.

Joe Frazier
speed=7
power=9 Most dramatic left hook ever.
skill=9 Very hard worker.
defense=8 Crab defense was tough, but he was half-blind.
chin=9 Only KO'd by Foreman...that says a lot.
heart=10 Again, incredible worker, never gave up.
stamina=10 Fight Night 3 is way off here.

Mike Tyson
speed=9 His hand speed and footspeed have been clocked faster than Ali's. People will flame you if you dare post that this guy ran towards his opponents faster than Ali ran away from them, or that his hands reached their targets quicker, so I will give him a 9.
power=10 Few people had as many impressive shots.
skill=8 Never reached full potential.
defense=9 One of the hardest to hit.
chin=9 20" neck could absorb lots of punishment.
heart=6 He had heart until he won the belts.
stamina=7 Again, never reached full potential.

Evander Holyfield
speed=7
power=7
skill=9 Excellent counterpuncher.
defense=8
chin=8 Could take a suzie or two.
heart=10 He personifies heart.
stamina=9 Pretty tough, even later on in the fight.

This would make for a fun Collectible Card Game, and it would be educational for today's society who doesn't care about boxing anymore. I would even volunteer aiding in the design, research & development, and production of such a game/collectible hobby. This is fun.

I think you have done a good job with most of your ratings. First Issue... Frazier with equal handspeed to Foreman? He clearly had significantly faster hands then Foreman, Foreman should be on par with Marciano. Ali with heart at 8? Look at the adversity he faced... Having the nuts to sit on the ropes and play heavybag with the most fearsome champion of all time, going back out against Liston, getting up from that left hook in FOTC even though he had clearly lost the fight, taking huge punishment from Earnie Shavers for 15 rounds, lasting the thrilla in manila, taking round after round of a beating from Larry Holmes.

Theres a difference between contemplating quitting and quitting. Ali did contemplate quitting a couple of times in his career but never and this contemplation only occured in extreme circumstances. In the end he dug deep and went out there and got the job done. He could of flat out refused to go out like Liston or refused to continue like duran against leonard... but the fact of the matter is he didn't.

Ali's technical ability is overrated, his defense is overrated, even his speed by some fanatics, but his heart is one of his greatest qualities.. it allowed him to triumph where most would fold and stay competitive in the ring long after his skills and physical assets erroded. Did any of these other fighters mentioned face and persevere with the same level of adversity throughout their career as Ali? Absorb the same kind of punishment and keep on going? Joe Frazier who hates Ali's and rarely utters a positive word about him commended him on one thing.... his heart.

Mike Tyson has been clocked to have faster handspeed then Ali? Mike Tyson at his fastest had faster hands then Ali at his fastest? I have the Tyson career DVD set, have thoroughly watched all his fights and have never seen him display the kind of speed Ali displayed against say Brian London, Zora Folley, Sonny Liston?. Have you got a link to something regarding Tyson's handspeed being clocked faster then Ali's? It's possible but im skeptical because it not only contradicts what my eyes have percieved but also the general concensus among historians. Mike Tyson did at times move forward faster then Ali moved back... this wasn't always and advantage because he was often caught with a right hand when rushing in.

[BKM-]

I think you have done a good job with most of your ratings. First Issue... Frazier with equal handspeed to Foreman? He clearly had significantly faster hands then Foreman, Foreman should be on par with Marciano. Ali with heart at 8? Look at the adversity he faced... Having the nuts to sit on the ropes and play heavybag with the most fearsome champion of all time, going back out against Liston, getting up from that left hook in FOTC even though he had clearly lost the fight, taking huge punishment from Earnie Shavers for 15 rounds, lasting the thrilla in manila, taking round after round of a beating from Larry Holmes.

Theres a difference between contemplating quitting and quitting. Ali did contemplate quitting a couple of times in his career but never and this contemplation only occured in extreme circumstances. In the end he dug deep and went out there and got the job done. He could of flat out refused to go out like Liston or refused to continue like duran against leonard... but the fact of the matter is he didn't.

Ali's technical ability is overrated, his defense is overrated, even his speed by some fanatics, but his heart is one of his greatest qualities.. it allowed him to triumph where most would fold and stay competitive in the ring long after his skills and physical assets erroded. Did any of these other fighters mentioned face and persevere with the same level of adversity throughout their career as Ali? Absorb the same kind of punishment and keep on going? Joe Frazier who hates Ali's and rarely utters a positive word about him commended him on one thing.... his heart.

Mike Tyson has been clocked to have faster handspeed then Ali? Mike Tyson at his fastest had faster hands then Ali at his fastest? I have the Tyson career DVD set, have thoroughly watched all his fights and have never seen him display the kind of speed Ali displayed against say Brian London, Zora Folley, Sonny Liston?. Have you got a link to something regarding Tyson's handspeed being clocked faster then Ali's? It's possible but im skeptical because it not only contradicts what my eyes have percieved but also the general concensus among historians. Mike Tyson did at times move forward faster then Ali moved back... this wasn't always and advantage because he was often caught with a right hand when rushing in.

If thats what you think is heart, then you gotta put Tyson's heart higher aswell cause the guy never quit in his losses either(except at the very end of his career where his trainer didnt want him to go out there, and where he had enough of boxing). From what i understand, Ali has been in situations where he could've died in the ring, and still kept going on. Same as Tyson against Lewis, he took a ****load of punishment and he could've died, but he didn't quit either. So he should have heart higher aswell.

P4P i believe Tyson had faster hands than Ali. But yeah, Ali did have faster hands. I guess Brass put Tyson's higher is because Tyson's handspeed was more effective than Ali because of the power he had with the speed.

But good topic anyway, im gonna make one myself.

[BKM-]

Muhammad Ali

Speed = 10
Power = 6,5 (fought on his toes, never showed signs of a power puncher)
Skill = 7 (not that skilled but that can easily forgotten by his other qualities)
Defense = 8
Stamina = 9
Chin = 9,5
Heart = 9,5

Joe Louis

Speed = 8.5
Power = 10
Skill = 9,5
Defense = 8
Stamina = 8
Chin = 6,5 (Knocked dow a lot of times. Wobbled by punches from punchers who didnt hit that hard)
Heart = 8,5

Rocky Maricano

Speed = 6,5
Power = 10
Skill = 7 (underrated skills, such as his defence)
Defense = 7
Stamina = 10
Chin = 9
Heart = 10

Mike Tyson

Speed = 9,5
Power = 10
Skill = 8,5
Defense = 8,5
Stamina = 7,5
Chin = 8.5
Heart = 7,5

Larry Holmes

Speed = 8,5
Power = 7
Skill = 8,5
Defense = 8
Chin = 8.5
Stamina = 9
Heart = 9,5 (Took a right from hell, and came back to win)

Jack Dempsey

Speed = 8,5
Power = 10
Skill = 8
Defense = 8
Stamina = 7,5
Chin = 7.5
Heart = 9


Joe Frazier

Speed = 8
Power = 9,5
Skill = 8,5 (Very skilled fighter, especially on the inside)
Stamina = 10
Chin = 8.5
Heart= 10

George Foreman

Speed = 7
Power = 10
Skill = 7
Stamina = 7
Chin = 8,5
Heart = 9,5 (probably after Ali, he'd rather die in the ring than quit or get counted out)

Lennox Lewis

Speed = 7.5
Power = 9.5 (His right hand is a 10, but overall, he doesnt have power like the other greats)
Skill = 8,5
Stamina = 7,5
Chin = 7
Heart = 7

Sonny Liston

Speed = 7.5
Power = 10
Skill = 8
Stamina = 8
Chin = 6,5 (ko'd by a punch that didn't look like powerfull)
Heart = 6

Evander Holyfield

Speed = 8
Power = 8
Skill = 8,5
Stamina = 9
Chin = 9.5
Heart = 10

Thats about it. Maybe you dont agree, i'd be glad to hear why.

[Heckler]

Mike Tyson

Power - 10
Speed - 10
Skill - 8
Chin - 9
Defense - 9
Stamina - 7
Heart - 7

In terms of physical assets he is nothing short of amazing.

Muhammad Ali

Power - 7
Speed - 10
Heart - 10
Skill - 8
Chin - 10
Defense - 6
Stamina - 9

Rocky Marciano

Power - 10
Speed - 6
Skill - 6
Heart - 10
Chin - 9
Defense - 7
Stamina - 10

Joe Frazier

Power - 9
Speed - 8
Heart - 10
Skill - 7
Chin - 8
Defense - 8
Stamina - 10

Joe Louis

Power - 10
Speed - 9
Skill - 9
Heart - 9
Chin - 7
Defense - 9 (had a tendancy to drop that left hand)
Stamina - 8

George Foreman

Power - 10
Speed - 6
Skill - 5 (
Heart - 7
Defense - 6
Stamina - 7