Be fair and don't hate a guy because he beat your idol

[BattlingNelson]

I can't be bothered arguing with someone who seemingly cannot understand anything I am saying. You have misunderstood virtually everything I have said.
I will say this though. No I don't give Holyfield a pass at all, I am saying that there is no pass needed to be given, he had NO advantage in the ring whatsoever, and NOTHING you can say will change that. They found Briggs had cheated in the U.S.A, and he only recently looked pumped. So why wouldn't they have found Holyfield to have, over a far longer period?
Do you really think that if two brothers trained together with the same people around them, and they were both skinny, but then both went huge, that only one would take performance enhancers?
Why are you so keen to defend the Klitschko's but so keen to condemn Holyfield? These guys weighed over 17st, Holyfield 14st 10 when he fought the almost 18st Bowe.
I was not saying that the Klitschko's got hometown decisions, I was saying that Germany is a country that protects its fighters with hometown decisions, and a country that would do that, would be far more likely to encourage them to take PED'S and far less likely to fine them for cheating.
Eastern Europeans are known for being the worst drug cheats.

I won't bother to answer. Your post is utter rubbish and speaks for itself.

[chaconfan]

You did not respond to the point regarding his weight for the De Leon fight, or his natural growth and increase in weight from his amateur/first pro year.
Chaconfan. You just mentioned his "natural growth", so why are saying he cheated to put weight on?
He was a full grown man in the Olympics and for his first 4 pro bouts as a light heavy. He didn't just grow into a heavyweight, he had a personal nutritionist and a PRO body builder to help him gain weight.


That is why I said who was favoured to beat him except for Bowe during his first reign and then Lewis in his second.
Chaconfan. You are annoying, you did not say "favoured to beat him", you said, "who had a chance to beat him".
Ok Valuev outweighed him by around 100lbs, and Holyfield was 46 yrs old too. Valuev was 10-1 favourite. Not enough? Didn't think so, lets add Lewis twice, Bowe three times, Foreman, Holmes, Douglas, Rodriguez, Thomas, Dokes, Savarese even Nielsen who was 64-2 and had made a name for himself beating washed up ex champs, had a chance. He was outweighed by every HW opponent, but these guys had the most weight advantage


I am actually a big Evander Holyfield fan. He was one of the main reasons for me why the heavyweight scene of the 90's was so enjoyable.



Drug testing in boxing pre-1984?

So if there was no drug testing before Holyfield, do you honestly think that ONLY Evander would have taken them? When he moved to HW in 1988, people back then thought he looked like he was on steroids, don't you think he would have been tested? If so, why not accuse Frank Bruno, Mike Williams, Joshua, Weaver, the Klitschko's, hell Vitali even admitted he took them as an amateur, but wouldn't be stupid enough to admit he did as a pro.
Even if there was no testing before 1984, I am sure that there was from 1988 onwards, which is when he moved to HW.
I would like to know just what is your gripe with Holyfield anyway?
By rights he should be Olympic champ.
First ever undisputed cruiser champ.
First ever four time HW champ.
First ever five time HW champ.
First ever six time HW champ.
And oldest ever HW champ, as he was 46 when robbed against Valuev.
Never ducked anyone, and was a warrior and a gentleman. Not enough?

[chaconfan]

I won't bother to answer. Your post is utter rubbish and speaks for itself.

So was yours, and I am sorry I wasted my time explaining it to someone who has a hate agenda and a low comprehension level.

[chaconfan]

[QUOTE=BattlingNelson;17693779]Yes. What about that? How does that involve his professional career?

Chaconfan.
I CLEARLY explained how it involved his pro career, but you have an agenda, so you decided to only quote the part of my reply that makes it appear that I did not explain it.

[joeandthebums]

So if there was no drug testing before Holyfield, do you honestly think that ONLY Evander would have taken them?

I never made any reference to the landscape in regards to others potentially taking performance enhancing drugs.

When he moved to HW in 1988, people back then thought he looked like he was on steroids, don't you think he would have been tested?

Do you have any knowledge of the testing performed in boxing as it is extremely limited and pre-determined so if a boxer was taking a form of PED's it would of took a great amount of ineptitude on their part to be caught.

Even if there was no testing before 1984, I am sure that there was from 1988 onwards, which is when he moved to HW.

It sounds like you have zero knowledge on the subject.

During Holyfield championship reign, Nevada did not test boxers for steroid use.

Buster Douglas was the first Holyfield opponent to publicly raise question on steroid use, no testing was performed.

Larry Holmes comments on potential use probably were the most public. No testing was performed

Rock Newman again raised issue, on which Nevada state commissioner Mark Ratner responded;

"We certainly won't test with these allegations coming out of no-where. A steroid test is more expensive than a urine test, and we're not prepared to test every fighter who comes in for steroids."

I would like to know just what is your gripe with Holyfield anyway?
By rights he should be Olympic champ.
First ever undisputed cruiser champ.
First ever four time HW champ.
First ever five time champ.
First ever six time champ.
And oldest ever HW champ, as he was 46 when robbed against Valuev.
Never ducked anyone, and was a warrior and a gentleman. Not enough?

You keep referencing Tyson fanboys, but come across as an uninformed Holyfield fanboy.

[Bundana]

On top of that, they were both tall skinny guys, then both became monsters, putting on far more weight than Evander ever did.

Vitali debuted at 232¾, and subsequently went as high as 252...a gain of 19¼ lbs.

Wladimir debuted at 220½, and subsequently went as high as 249... a gain of 28½ lbs.

Holyfield debuted at 177½, and subsequently went as high as 226... a gain of 48½ lbs.


... so your claim that both brothers put on more weight than Evander ever did, is not true!

[chaconfan]

Vitali debuted at 232¾, and subsequently went as high as 252...a gain of 19¼ lbs.

Wladimir debuted at 220½, and subsequently went as high as 249... a gain of 28½ lbs.

Holyfield debuted at 177½, and subsequently went as high as 226... a gain of 48½ lbs.


... so your claim that both brothers put on more weight than Evander ever did, is not true!

That would be a good point, if that was what I meant.
Holyfield grew naturally up to 14st 4lbs, which is the cruiser limit. He is at that point accused of using steroids to get to heavyweight, and he fought Bowe at 14st 10lbs. Which is 6lbs.
You mentioned Evander was 177 when he came out of the Olympics and turned pro. Well look at clips of the Klitschko's when they were kickboxing, just before turning pro, they were very skinny. They turned pro and were already heavies. It is not normal for a heavy to pile on lots more weight which is all muscle, when there is no reason to need to put weight on, which was the case with the Klitschko's. And anyway Vitali admitted he took steroids as an amateur and would never admit to taking them as a pro, as that could have a very bad outcome. Their arms always looked pumped up too. I have been a bodybuilder for 30 years and know that they just don't look like that unless you pump them up before you entered the ring, which there is no way they would do, as they would lose all speed and their arms would tire very quickly, unless they took something that negated that side effect.

[chaconfan]

I never made any reference to the landscape in regards to others potentially taking performance enhancing drugs.



Do you have any knowledge of the testing performed in boxing as it is extremely limited and pre-determined so if a boxer was taking a form of PED's it would of took a great amount of ineptitude on their part to be caught.



It sounds like you have zero knowledge on the subject.

During Holyfield championship reign, Nevada did not test boxers for steroid use.

Buster Douglas was the first Holyfield opponent to publicly raise question on steroid use, no testing was performed.

Larry Holmes comments on potential use probably were the most public. No testing was performed

Rock Newman again raised issue, on which Nevada state commissioner Mark Ratner responded;

"We certainly won't test with these allegations coming out of no-where. A steroid test is more expensive than a urine test, and we're not prepared to test every fighter who comes in for steroids."



You keep referencing Tyson fanboys, but come across as an uninformed Holyfield fanboy.

I admit that I do not have any knowledge of what testing is done and the history of it. I know that they caught many boxers over the years, and many Olympians. I would have thought that with multi millions at stake, that they would do testing, but it seems not.
However I am not an uninformed fanboy. I am 54 and used to watch Ali defend his title live. I have boxed, helped train boxers, and have met dozens of legends and well known boxers throughout my life, so you can patronize all you want, but I do know boxing history even if I don't know about the drug testing side. Anyway, even if he did take them, do you really think that he would be the only one doing so? He was still massively outweighed, by many of his opponents, which I noticed that you conveniently did not quote me on, when I answered your question, " who outweighed him that had a chance to beat him?". Funny how you quote me all the time, when trying to make me look inept, but when I owned you with an answer, you totally ignored the issue altogether. I mention Tyson fan boys, because they are the only people that want to pull Evander down. I am a fan of all boxers, and defend ones that people try to take credit away from.
If a former 177lb fighter used PED'S in order to be able to fight guys up to virtually 311lbs, he surely had no advantage, and even then, there is NOTHING to say that his opponents also did not take them. We know Tyson came into the ring with cocaine in him, we know Mosely used, we know Roy Jones used, and Shannon Briggs, no doubt many others. Why does Holyfield get all the stick for it?... Tyson fan boys.

[chaconfan]

Quote
Joeandthebums
Except from the Bowe fights what opponent massively outweighed Holyfield who had an actual chance of beating him?
Quote
Joeandthebums
That is why I said who was favoured to beat him except for Bowe during his first reign and then Lewis in his second.

Chaconfan's reply. You are annoying, you did not say "favoured to beat him", you said, "who had a chance to beat him". As I have shown in your quote above, which proves that you are just trying to discredit Evander, at any cost to your integrity.
Ok Valuev outweighed him by around 100lbs, and Holyfield was 46 yrs old too. Valuev was 10-1 favourite. Not enough? Didn't think so, lets add Lewis twice, Bowe three times, Foreman, Holmes, Douglas, Rodriguez, Thomas, Dokes, Savarese even Nielsen who was 64-2 and had made a name for himself beating washed up ex champs, had a chance. He was outweighed by every HW opponent, but these guys had the most weight advantage.
Edit.. You asked me who outweighed him who had an actual chance to beat him? but then quoted me on everything else I said, other than the direct and definitive answer I gave...an answer that completely owned you, which explains the lack of response. You will notice however, that I readily admitted that you know more than I do regarding drug testing. You see I am a fair person without a hate agenda.

[joeandthebums]

Anyway, even if he did take them, do you really think that he would be the only one doing so?

If I thought he did, yes I believe he would of been in the minority of elite heavyweights of the era that took performance enhancing drugs.

He was still massively outweighed, by many of his opponents

Does weight equate to skills?

which I noticed that you conveniently did not quote me on, when I answered your question, " who outweighed him that had a chance to beat him?". Funny how you quote me all the time, when trying to make me look inept, but when I owned you with an answer, you totally ignored the issue altogether.

Apart from Bowe in his first reign, who was Holyfield not heavily favoured against (which yes I also phrased as 'had a chance to beat him')?

Against Tyson he was the underdog, but only 7 pounds lighter and the first Lewis fight many had him the favourite.

I mention Tyson fan boys, because they are the only people that want to pull Evander down. I am a fan of all boxers, and defend ones that people try to take credit away from.

Would a fan of all boxers not want to look at all the facts and want to find out the truth rather than blanket protection?

We know Tyson came into the ring with cocaine in him, we know Mosely used, we know Roy Jones used, and Shannon Briggs, no doubt many others. Why does Holyfield get all the stick for it?... Tyson fan boys.

Except for Tyson they were performance enhancing drugs and Holyfield comes in for criticism because of tangible evidence against him.

You asked me who outweighed him who had an actual chance to beat him? but then quoted me on everything else I said, other than the direct and definitive answer I gave...an answer that completely owned you, which explains the lack of response.

All of the boxers you listed, with the exception of those I have named were a level at best below Holyfield.