Ali vs. Tyson: out on a fragile limb.

[SABBATH]

His angles were difficult to defend against, and Ali wasn't notorious for being a very sound defensive fighter. He simply tried to lean or slide away, and that's not fool-proof against a quick hitter.

BA,

I can always tell when you regurgitate someone else's drivel and try to pass it off as your own.

Don't confuse not being defensively sound with unconvential defence. Ali's style in his prime allowed him to win without getting hit plain and simple. Watch his fights and stop reading Monte Cox articles.

Not fool proof against a quick hitter? Henry Cooper fought both Ali and Floyd Patterson. Who do you think Cooper said had the faster hands? It was Patterson. When Ali fought Patterson Floyd couldn't lay a glove on him. Watch the first round. Ali purposely didn't throw a punch the entire round and Patterson couldn't touch him.

Ali was notorious in the 60's for sparring with welterweights like world champion Luis Rodrigues and seeing how long he could go without Rodrugues landing a single punch.

Sugar Ray Leonard borrowed alot of Ali's defensive techniques ie: dropping his hands and pulling back from punches. Would you suggest Leonard wasn't very sound sefensively? Hector Camacho and Pernell Whittacker also deployed less than conventional defensive manuevers, but in their primes were very extrememly difficult to hit. Were they not sound defensively?

It was their uncoventional defence that allowed for these guys who had below average punching power to reign as champions.

Defence is the art of not getting hit plain and simple. Ali in his first reign as champion was hardly hit and came out of 15 round fights with Terrell and Chuvalo facially unmarked. Ali wasn't cut, floored, staggered, or swollen in the face in ANY of his fights as champion from 1964-67. How can that be if he isn't a sound defensive fighter?

Cleveland Williams had scored 51 KO's in 65 wins when he faced Ali. I will now quote Ring Magazine: "His punching power was reputed to be the equal of any heavyweight in boxing-past or present..." Williams was the same as Ali in both height and reach. In 3 rounds Williams connected a grand total of THREE times. How can this be if Ali wasn't sound defensively???

[butterfly1964]

BA,

I can always tell when you regurgitate someone else's drivel and try to pass it off as your own.

Don't confuse not being defensively sound with unconvential defence. Ali's style in his prime allowed him to win without getting hit plain and simple. Watch his fights and stop reading Monte Cox articles.

Not fool proof against a quick hitter? Henry Cooper fought both Ali and Floyd Patterson. Who do you think Cooper said had the faster hands? It was Patterson. When Ali fought Patterson Floyd couldn't lay a glove on him. Watch the first round. Ali purposely didn't throw a punch the entire round and Patterson couldn't touch him.

Ali was notorious in the 60's for sparring with welterweights like world champion Luis Rodrigues and seeing how long he could go without Rodrugues landing a single punch.

Sugar Ray Leonard borrowed alot of Ali's defensive techniques ie: dropping his hands and pulling back from punches. Would you suggest Leonard wasn't very sound sefensively? Hector Camacho and Pernell Whittacker also deployed less than conventional defensive manuevers, but in their primes were very extrememly difficult to hit. Were they not sound defensively?

It was their uncoventional defence that allowed for these guys who had below average punching power to reign as champions.

Defence is the art of not getting hit plain and simple. Ali in his first reign as champion was hardly hit and came out of 15 round fights with Terrell and Chuvalo facially unmarked. Ali wasn't cut, floored, staggered, or swollen in the face in ANY of his fights as champion from 1964-67. How can that be if he isn't a sound defensive fighter?

Cleveland Williams had scored 51 KO's in 65 wins when he faced Ali. I will now quote Ring Magazine: "His punching power was reputed to be the equal of any heavyweight in boxing-past or present..." Williams was the same as Ali in both height and reach. In 3 rounds Williams connected a grand total of THREE times. How can this be if Ali wasn't sound defensively???

amen, preach on brother.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Ali had a horrible defense.
But as Angelo Dundee has said, Ali's speed was so key we never developed his inside fighting or much of his defense, he was just that fast.

And infact Ali was very quick in his prime and notorious for not getting hit. Ali in a sense had the best defense which was to not get hit. I mean who needs a conventional defense when your not getting hit. He just danced around throwing jabs keeping his opponents off of him while scoring points.

So his defense wasn't as good as say Joe Louis' but it wasn't like he was somebody who just ran in without protection

[Heckler]

I really can't see Tyson landing a couple of shots on the inside and putting Ali away. Ali's recovery was just too good not only was his recovery good you never know when the man had been hurt, he was brilliant at hiding this. If Tysons going to KO ali i believe hes going to have to systematically brake him down with body work, be a conscientious worker on the inside, keep the pressure on him and produce a workrate we didn't see too often from Tyson... Most importantly he would have to weather Ali's storm as Ali inevitably lays more leather on him as he tries to work his way on the inside then anyother fighter did. He would have to keep his composure, persevere and stick to his gameplan. Personally i don't see it happening at any time in Tyson's career.

[Heckler]

The only time Ali had no defense is upon his return, when his speed and coordination had somewhat diminished.... he had no conventional defense to fall back on.

[K-DOGG]

Tyson was a force of nature in the early rounds; but he wasn't consitant through the course of a fight, which is what he would need to be to defeat a prime Ali. Of course, this being boxing, anything can happen and a fight can be decided with one shot; but let's look at the odds of this happening.

Ali knocked down by Sony Banks, Henry Cooper, Joe Frazier, and Chuck Wepner (officially...though Chuck stepped on his foot when he landed the body shot). What does this say? Ali wasn't in his prime when Banks and Cooper dropped him. He was a young kid who got caught; but came back to stop Cooper on cuts the very next round, landing blistering punches....translation: Ali didn't become intimidated by being knocked down; it inspired him to kick some ass. Against Banks, same thing in essence. Against Frazier, Ali was in his third rushed fight after a 3 year exile and hadn't gotten his legs back. The hook that dropped him was an awesome shot that would have probably knocked out any man who had taken the kind of beating to the body Ali had taken all night by Frazier, yet Ali rose at the count of 2 to 4 and continued going at Frazier. Once again, not intimidated by being dropped with a hellacious punch; but inspired to show he wasn't hurt.

Murderous Punchers Ali fought:

Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams, Joe Frazier, Mac Foster, George Foreman, Ron Lyle, and Earnie Shavers.


None of these men stopped or ever dropped Ali, save Frazier in the first of 3 fights.

Mike Tyson in the early rounds was dangerous. Likewise, a prime Ali was very elusive in the early rounds utilizing continuous movement. Tyson was the type of figher that needed to get set to release his volleys. Mike couldn't get set if his opponent was in constant motion and blinding him with the jab. Unlike Frazier, Tyson slowed as the fight went on, picking moments to unleash...his head movement also slowed and he had a tendency to load up. Also, contrary to popular belief, Mike was horrible on the inside if tied up. He rarely fought his way out of a clinch as much as he allowed himself to be held. Ali was a master of manipulation on the inside when he chose to be, holding the man's head down by applying pressure on the back of the neck, forcing a man to fight himself. Also, this tactic prevents an uppercut or left hook from landing.

I'm not saying there's no way for Mike to win; but given the styles and the menalities of the two, it just appears too difficult a task. Not to mention Mike proved to be a mentally fragile individual, which would play right into Ali's mind games as did Foreman in Zaire.

Ali by TKO in 10 or somewhere thereabouts.

[Heckler]

I agree, the only way i see Tyson winning is if Tyson catches him with a murderous punch... is able to drop Ali or hurt him and identify the fact that he's hurt, capitalize before he recovers. I just think Ali was too hard to find in the ring to take him out like that, Tyson wasn't able to get bonecrusher smith out of there nor Quick Tillis nor Mitch Green.. these fighters wern't willing to fight Tyson's game nor were they half as evasive as Ali. Quick Tillis tried using lateral movement and at times had his hands dangerously low.

An early round blowout is possible, not probable and in my opinion is Tyson's only chance of taking the bout.

[Heckler]

People will be quick to point out that cleveland williams was shot, literally and had declined. Watch cleveland williams in his prime, then watch his fight against Ali. Did he ever get himself in a position or situation where a younger version of him could of capitalized? And this version of him did not? The answer is no... he was tailor made for Ali. Big, relatively slow slugger who Ali could pick apart. Ali was sharp on that night... and for the notion that Ali had no power, this is an occasion where we can see a pre-layoff plant his feet and throw right hands... he put Cleveland Williams flat on his back. Those trying to discredit Ali blame Williams going down on his decline, Really? It doesn't matter because when a fighter has reached a certain level of durability or ability to take a punch it stays that way. Foreman at the age of 45? was able to take a billion punches to the head via Holyfield and he was far past his physical prime, Ali was able to take murderous shots from Earnie Shavers and had clearly declined.

[Brassangel]

Originally Posted by SABBATH
Watch his fights and stop reading Monte Cox articles.

I've watched every fight he has on film multiple times, and I have no idea who Monte Cox is. The natural defense mechanism of a person is to duck or back away from a punch, generally out of fear of getting hit. Ali just continued to use this as a trained professional fighter. It's weaknesses made itself clear when he started to lose his fluidity. Since part two of his career consisted of more quality matchups and a longer reign as champion, I think it's fair to include that in an analysis of Ali's defense. As a comprehensive analysis, it is fair to suggest that Ali wasn't a sound defensive fighter. It is true, however, that we should take into consideration the physically prime version of Ali who was difficult to hit. I guess I find this to be a pointless validation for Ali avoiding Tyson's shots, as Tyson spent the early portion of his career avoiding getting hit as well. He just managed to punish his opponents a lot quicker than did Ali on most occassions.

Originally Posted by Heckler
People will be quick to point out that cleveland williams was shot, literally and had declined. Watch cleveland williams in his prime, then watch his fight against Ali. Did he ever get himself in a position or situation where a younger version of him could of capitalized? And this version of him did not? The answer is no... he was tailor made for Ali. Big, relatively slow slugger who Ali could pick apart. Ali was sharp on that night... and for the notion that Ali had no power, this is an occasion where we can see a pre-layoff plant his feet and throw right hands... he put Cleveland Williams flat on his back. Those trying to discredit Ali blame Williams going down on his decline, Really? It doesn't matter because when a fighter has reached a certain level of durability or ability to take a punch it stays that way. Foreman at the age of 45? was able to take a billion punches to the head via Holyfield and he was far past his physical prime, Ali was able to take murderous shots from Earnie Shavers and had clearly declined.

This is very true, although it might be better reserved for a different thread. I do agree, however, that Ali's power was underrated. No one denies his ability to take a punch, although this wasn't tested very often in his younger days.

Now, to respond to all of the critics who say that Mike burnt out after the first few rounds: this was true on several occassions, but his corner (when interviewed after the fight with Ferguson) said that they were starting to work on Mike's patience to better prepare him for the higher ranking opponents. This was apparent even in that fight, where Mike didn't throw a whole lot of punches up through the early portions of the 5th round (other than some jabbing), still had tons of head movement by that point, and waited for the right opportunity to move in. When he did, he landed a series of viscious punches to the body, which did their job in a short amount of time, setting up angled shots to the head which were difficult to avoid from the corner. Mike ended up breaking his nose with that right uppercut, which would have even taken it's toll on any fighter, including Ali. The Greatest or not, a broken nose is more of a nuisance to fight through than a broken jaw, as the nose continues to bleed out. Often times this will prompt a ring doctor. If you watch Ali when he would actually put his arms up to defend instead of simply moving out of the way, they were parallel to each other, with about a 3-6 inch space running between them at any given time. In fights where he did this, his opponents never threw uppercuts in there, they tried instead to force hooks around the block, or throw to the body, usually hitting Ali's elbows. Well, the uppercut was Tyson's signature. While this doesn't mean that it automatically dictates what's going to occur during the fight, it is a little thing that most people don't observe. A five-hundred pound door is moved by hinges weighing a few ounces.

Back on topic: while Ferguson isn't 1/100th the fighter that Ali was, it was simply one example of a fight where Tyson showed patience, and still moved with great speed on offense, as well as head movement into the middle rounds. Plus, Ali was still a man, which makes him susceptible to the same occurrence. He could be dancing around, avoiding Mike early, which would allow Mike to patiently conserve some energy, weaving around the jab, and waiting for the right moment; like when Ali's legs start to slow down a bit in the mid-to-late rounds. It's not always the number of punches that determine the work rate. Again, this was one example where Tyson was actually working on becoming a long-term fighter. He still came out on fire in the 6th round as well, until Ferguson held onto Mike until he was disqualified.

Seeing as how both men were extremely difficult to hit at these stages of their careers, I doubt that we'd see a KO, unless it was early by Mike. I completely doubt that Ali would do enough damage to a guy who could take a beating like Tyson could, who was as hard to hit as he was early on, to earn a TKO in their first fight. Especially in today's world, where more fights are 10-12 rounds and not 15.

Even though this disciplined, patient, hard working and motivated Mike Tyson only appeared at brief moments during a short span of his career, it's safe to use this as an example since we are using a "prime" Muhammad Ali, which only existed for 3-4 fights as well.

And on and on...

[Heckler]

I think the notion that Ali could not TKO Tyson is incorrect. Ali could throw hard and fast flurries, catch fighters with that right lead as they come in and could hurt ANY man.. once hurt the sheer volume of punches and accumalative effect of Ali's assault is enough to put anyone away. If Ali could break Tyson down he stands a chance of getting a TKO in the later rounds when Tyson begins to fade.

I'll Admit Tyson was impressive against Jesse, but Jesse didn't create a situation of adversity. Jesse didn't punish him from the outside as i believe Ali would in the initial rounds. Tyson was a brilliant defensive fighter and especially in the early rounds, but Ali was an accurate puncher with a brilliant comprehension of range that would be quite capable of landing leather on Tyson. Would Tyson weather the storm? Would he maintain his composure? If so he could systematically brake Ali down over a number of rounds and score a late TKO.... but i tend to sway towards the school of thought that believes Ali would create an adverse situation for Tyson, and Tyson lacked the mental strength at any time of his career that would allow him to persevere and triumph.