The Myth Of Mike Tyson

[kmet14]

Hm reading this post I almost forgot what it was about. First I thought it was sabbath opinions vs. everyone else (or sabbath vs. tyson). Althought they made a very good effort of discrediting tyson no one here really made a good reply crediting tyson.

First of all I think that tyson from 85-88 was awesome. What was obvious from the start was his punching power and quickness. In 1985 he really fought "bums" but what was icredible it was the way he won those fights with unbelivieble knockouts and in the process he almost never got hit - his movement was great - because of this his chin was questioned in almost all of his 1986 fights, no one knew how he would react if he really got hit hard. In 86 he slowly started to box more gain and recognizable opponents. Two going the distance:

Lets quote sabbath here:
James Tillis past his prime and now a decent journeyman loses a close decision to Tyson. Tillis never beat a top 10 heavyweight in his career and was KO'd 11 times.

You think this was a close decision? Have you seen the fight? Tillis down in 4th and outboxed on every confrontation. Tyson was clearly dominating the first five rounds and then started pacing himself(not hitting the body) because it was his first 10 round fight. But still finished very strong. I also doubt tillis at 28 was past his prime and he came in superb shape (even the commentators commented on this).

Sabbath:
Mitch Green. Here's a switch. A Tyson opponent who doesn't have multiple KO losses on his record. Green who never defeated a ranked fighter and retired 19-6 goes the distance with Tyson and is never floored.

Yeah he wasn't floored but was struck so bad on so many occasions that it is a miracle that he survived. I think his mouth piece was knocked out three times and in my oppinion tyson winning every round.

That year he also defeated Ferguson who was a very gain opponent and got knocked down in the fifth (with a broken nose) althought he got up and was later disqualified for holding. Even Ferguson himself admitted that mike was incredible. The only other competitive fight was Ribalta who got destroyed in 10 rounds getting knock down three times and taking abnormal amount of punishment. All other 86 fights were no problem for mike. Especially his 1986 title fight with Berbick (who beaten the old Ali and went the distance with prime Holmes), I think we can all aggre that Berbick had no chance and got destroyed. And how about Tony Tucker was he a nobody too? Tucker had a 35-0 record at the time and got beaten by tyson I think this is the best tyson fight although not the most entertaining. Followed the total destruction of Biggs.Later followed the Holmes match and then the Spinks match. Being the only man who knocked them both out. I think if Mike would stay with Rooney (who is the only apropriate trainer for tyson because only he is the only one familiar with cus's style or maybe teddy atlas but they hate each other) he could of been the greatest heavyweith ever and could in his prime defeat any other champion icluding Ali, Louis, Marciano,...

[Heckler]

It's a shame that Tyson, the most physically gifted, talented, and one of the most if not the most skilled heavyweight of all time lacked the mental component to be a truly great champ.

No i don't believe Tyson ever had the mental strength, the self-confidence, the intangible qualities required for a champ to be truly great and dig down when the going gets really tough. I think the lack of these intangible qualities is apparent at any time of his career. Sure his physical gifts alone would be enough to defeat 99% of the men who ever stepped between those ropes, but Louis, Marciano, Ali, Holmes? It's quite possible that Tyson would come up short.

[Heckler]

Yaman referring to Yogi as biased? How is Yogi biased? What is your basis for this. Has he ever stated anything about Tyson without a logical basis for doing so? He thinks Tyson is a piece of ****, how could he be any more biased then you whom loves Tyson?

You throw around the word 'biased' too often, try throwing around logic instead.

[kmet14]

Heckler: I agre with you completely. He lacked mental strength and self-confidence but those things happened after he fired Rooney and lost his hw championship to Douglas. Just look at his later trainers (especialy the fiasco with missing equipment in the douglas fight) that would never happen if Rooney was still his trainer, also you have take into consideration that Rooney was the only trainer familiar with tysons pick-a-boo technic. And Tyson was the only one using that techic. I am really wondering what went on when tyson was training with later trainers? Perhaps he first showed them how he trains?

[BKM-]

First off, I'll take back my comments on how Tyson's physical appearance was versus Spinks, as he did look in very good shape. Not as "ripped" as he was say versus Holmes, but yeah, he did look a little bit better than he did versus Douglas...

I'll take that part back, but I won't take back my comments about his lack of head movement and such...I mean, you probably aren't the person to be talking to about this, but I just never understood those "the night he beat Spinks he beats everybody" comments...

"His techniques in the Spinks fight were not high level. If Cus D'Amato had watched the fight he would have commented that there was no slipping, no bobbing, no weaving, the trademarks of the D'Amato system." - Steve Lott

I'm in agreement with Tyson's cornerman for that fight, as I tried to point out earlier. That stuff wasn't really there in that fight against Spinks, and if judging that performance against other all-time greats at heavyweight, then it has to considered not there for those fights, as well. In fact, in that fight Tyson showed a style that many Tyson fanboys have been critical of and as some kind of indicator of what a past his prime Tyson does...A lack of head movement and a guy who's only looking for a quick knockout. A big win for Tyson (probably his biggest) because of the signifcance of him winning the real heavyweight championship. But the performance? Nah...all he did was go out there, go straight forward with very little head movement, and blast some guy that didn't look to have had desire to be in the ring on that night.

Moving on...

Againt Douglas he did have a tiny bit of extra around the trunk line, which was no different than he had for other fights of his earlier in his career (like the Ferguson fight you mentioned). But ****, the guy was still built like a brick ****house in that Douglas fight, and yeah, I'd say that he was ripped...

And you know, I could really care less what Rooney says about Tyson's career after he left him. I've read plenty of interviews from him in over the years, and all it seems he does is criticize Tyson's fighting abilities after he left, and I think that's his own personal way of trying to elevate himself as a trainer (has he done ANYTHING else of great note in boxing besides being Tyson's trainer). It's like he's constantly saying that "Tyson is nothing without me", and even over the last couple of years I've read his words stating that Tyson would be just as good as he ever was if only he returned to Rooney's training ways...Ridiculous!

To me his words on Tyson are all said with an agenda of elevating himself, like what he says nowadays about the first fight that Tyson had without him in his corner, which was against Bruno...Sorry Rooney, but I don't see a fighter in that fight whose skills were "greatly diminished", or "hadn't trained" or "wasn't using Cus' style anymore", and whatver else he said about that version of Tyson. In fact, I'd take that Tyson over the Rooney-trained ones that fought the likes of Nino Ribalta, Bonecrusher Smith, and maybe a couple of other ones (from mememory the performance against Tubbs wasn't overly impressive, besides the final few seconds of the fight).

And speaking about the Douglas fight, he had the opinion that Tyson "didn't want to win" that fight. Sorry, but that is also a load of crap, and if you can't see that by the way Tyson was fighting (showing he in fact had some heart by taking the ****kicking he did on that night and still trying to win), at least the post fight actions of Tyson (press conferance) shows that he very much wanted to win that fight. A fighter who "didn't want to win" doesn't show the emotion that Mike did after the fight, when he was very much pissed with what happened in that fight.

And no I didn't know that Tyson "starved himself to death" for the Douglas fight, nor does it look like he did when he was in the ring. But let me guess...more Rooney comments?

If so, how on earth would he know what the hell was going on in Tyson's camp for that fight, because he certainly wasn't speaking with Tyson or anybody else that was directly affiliated with Mike at that time (has he even spoken to Tyson since he was fired and responded by sueing?)?

Oh you take it back eh? See what miracles can happen IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCH THE FIGHTS? . And again about his head movement, he would move his head if he needed to . There was no need for Tyson to move his head for the full 91 seconds he lasted. Spinks was not a problem for Tyson that night, because you saw what happened. Tyson realised this, so he went for the quick knockout instead of the boxing with head movement. Spinks crumbled, he was scared, had no desire to go out there to beat Tyson, unlike Tucker Thomas etc, who were actually trying. And if Tyson NEEDED to move his head, he did. So maybe you didn't notice that.

THEN, in the Douglass fight in the mid rounds or so(And the first round, you're right, but Tyson always did that early in a fight, you should watch if he keeps it up for the whole fight) Tyson started to get back to his peek a boo style like the commentators of the fight mentioned, because he realised he needed it, but his head movement lasted very little and only on a couple of rounds, nowhere near as great as he did with fights like Furgeson or Tubbs etc(And dont mention Spinks, i explained it).

Now, that was a brilliant explenation on the whole Spinks-Douglass situation from yours truly.

What you think about Rooney may be right, but he is always on point about Tyson and knows what he's talking about. Ofcource he does, he made him the youngest HW champion. He knows more than you cause he's not blinded by hate. Like i said, im sure Teddy Atlas think Tysons a piece of ****, but he's not biased like you. I've seen about 3 interviews on docu's and read some articles of Rooney's opinion on the Douglass fight. He said he knew Tyson wasn't in shape and all of that, he could see it. Why wont you believe him? Because he hasn't done anything else in the boxing world like you say? What does that have to do with this? Same as you thinking he's tryin to elevate himself as a trainer, thats a weak way to try to disaprove Rooney's opinion, who has the best comments on Tyson..

Tyson said on Beyond the Glory ''I dont know i didnt really train for that fight, i didnt really take it serious. I was ****ing loads of Japanese girls'' etc, something like that. He was overweighed, and he starved himself to get back to his normal weight. I dont care who you are, if you aren't physically ready to fight, and have *** the night before and come back thinking you're invincible, you're not gonna be at your best. Thats really what i disagree with you, Yogi. I consider a fighter's ''prime'' when he is at his best. Tyson was young and everything, but he wasn't on his best that fight. George Foreman, he was young against Young, but was he at his best in that fight? No. Its the same thing.

[BKM-]

And about Keving Rooney, he was not the only one that held Tyson together, it were guys like Steve Lott, Clayton and basicely his whole catskills team. You guys dont know ****, especially you Heckler. Go back to your Ali threads, you dont know **** about this.

[SABBATH]

Lets quote sabbath here:
James Tillis past his prime and now a decent journeyman loses a close decision to Tyson. Tillis never beat a top 10 heavyweight in his career and was KO'd 11 times.

You think this was a close decision? Have you seen the fight? Tillis down in 4th and outboxed on every confrontation. Tyson was clearly dominating the first five rounds and then started pacing himself(not hitting the body) because it was his first 10 round fight. But still finished very strong. I also doubt tillis at 28 was past his prime and he came in superb shape (even the commentators commented on this).

Firstly, I watched the Tyson-Tillis fight on television when it happened, taped it watched it several times and still have it in my fight library.

The fight was a close decision. Read the emphasis. Going into the 10th and last round Tyson had a one round lead on two of the judges scorecards. Had Tillis won round ten the fight would have been declared a majority draw.

Tillis was a familiar face to the general boxing public as he had fought on network television many times before. Here was the problem. Tillis had been soundly beaten in every other fight he had on network televison.

Pinklon Thomas KO'd by 8, Greg Page KO'd by 8, Tim Witherspoon KO'd by 1, Marvis Frazier L 10. Four months before fighting Tyson, Tillis had been used by ABC to showcase gold medal winning heavyweight Tyrell Biggs who had hammered Tillis all over the ring winning 7 rounds to 1. Add in his losses to Gerrie Coetzee and Carl Williams during this time frame (don't recall watching those fights on network television) and Tillis had lost 4 of his last 5 fights.

The Tillis fight was Tyson's second fight televised by ABC and he was brought in for no other reason than to showcase Tyson blowing out a name fighter that viewers would be familiar with. An impressive KO win over Tillis would establish him as the best young prospect. The only problem was that someone forgot to tell Tillis and he made a pretty good fight of it, a better fight I may add than he had made in any of his previous convincing KO losses on network television.

If you believe Tillis was not past his prime then he must have been one hell of a **** fighter. If you go back to 1984 (2 years before meeting Tyson) and count forward (which would exclude Tillis already being KO'd 3 times and losing a 4th fight by decision) he would only win 12 of 32 fights.

[Heckler]

And about Keving Rooney, he was not the only one that held Tyson together, it were guys like Steve Lott, Clayton and basicely his whole catskills team. You guys dont know ****, especially you Heckler. Go back to your Ali threads, you dont know **** about this.

I don't know ****? Really because i don't watch Tyson obsessively i don't know ****? Ill be honest i don't know alot about the Tyson team dynamic, nor do i care. I have observed and analysed his fights and thus have every right to comment on Tysons strengths and Weaknesses. Im not part of this trivial debate on what went on behind the scenes... im merely analysing Tyson as a fighter, so your insults make no sense at all. Yogi has made you look like a fool, and i'll stay here, remain civil and have a good chuckle along with the rest of boxingscene as these guys own you.

Have a nice day

[kmet14]

Sabbath: Yes I know all about the scoring but still if you watch the fight you can clearly see it wasn't that close(the third judge had seen that). You can also see Tyson holding back and preserving energy. And you must admit that Tillis was in great shape coming in seven pounds lighter than his previous fight against Biggs.

[Heckler]

Hey Yaman your probably reading... why don't you contribute some more of your awesome logic... oh thats right YOUR BANNED... WHAT A DISASTROUS OCCURANCE!