May Madness - Middleweights

[K-DOGG]

Well, after a few days of voting, the results are in. In order to save space and get back to the discussions, I will simply post the second round pairings.

WEST
1. Ray Robinson vs.
4. Gene Fulmer

3. Tony Zale vs.
2. Bob Fitzsimmons

NORTH
1. Carlos Monzon vs.
4. Joey Giardello

3. Bernard Hopkins vs.
2. Stanley Ketchel

EAST
1. Marvin Hagler vs.
5. Jack Dempsey

3. Charley Burley vs.
2. Jake LaMotta

SOUTH
1. Harry Greb vs.
5. Archie Moore

3. Roy Jones Jr. vs.
2. Micky Walker


There you have it folks. There weren't too many expected upsets, as you can see from the remaining rankings. There were some very close disputes, like Roy Jones Jr. vs. Marcel Cerdan; it came down to one or two votes. Also, in the WEST, Nino Benvenuti nearly upset Bob Fitzsimmons. It's time to place your votes for round 2. Remember, PM your decisions to me, and discuss the matches here. Stay tuned for the results of the sweet 16!

Another intriguings set of matches. Jones-Walker, I feel would probably have a similar tone to Jones-Cerdan; but The Toy Bulldog, I believe, had a little more power and aggressiveness....if that plays into the match in any way.

I smell a slight upset...though I wouldn't call it that with Burley and LaMotta. If Jake only beat Sugar Ray once in six fights...well.

Greb-Moore....windmill activity and elusivness vs a great tactician in his own right. Personally, I gott go with Greb; but it would be thrilling, IMO.

Hagler and the aformentioned Dempsey....I have to feel even though Jack fought and beat many men bigger than himself (he was actually more of a welterweight) that his old-old school style wouldn't help him against Hagler.

Hopkins & Ketchel....talk about offense vs defense with both being well schooled in the "darker" side of the sport. I'd be very surprised if this one didn't end in a DQ. Tempers would flare....and I'd favour Ketchel based on teh activity he'd shown in several of his bouts...when he wanted.

Zale and Fitz....as much as I love Tony Zale, I'd have to give Ruby Robert the edge here. Fitz was knocking out heavyweight with regularity with his freakish strength and Zale had been shown to be capable of being caught. Average chin + above average punch+ aggressive wariors who preferred to come forward= Fitz winning by kayo at some point....IMO.

Monzon-Giardello....Joey was slick; but I can't see him escaping Carlos for too long. Monzon was a huge middleweight with a very good straight right....the rest of his punches weren't bad either.


Robinson-Fulmer.....can't see this one being anything but entertaining; and presuming both are at their physical peaks...except Robinson, who would have to be at his best at middleweight, which would equal the St. Valentine's Day Massacre Robinson, IMHO.....Sugar Ray wins a decision in an action packed affair that would see momentum shift both ways.


Can't wait for the "official results".

[Yogi]

I smell a slight upset...though I wouldn't call it that with Burley and LaMotta. If Jake only beat Sugar Ray once in six fights...well.

This Burley/LaMotta fight is the one that intrigues me the most out of this second round, K-Dogg, and I'm very much looking forward to how the voting turns out for it.

Personally, I think this fight will undoubtably go the full distance, and I think the odds of a difference of opinion regarding the decision is very likely with the judges split on what they like better...either LaMotta's better workrate & aggressiveness (which, given Burley's style, would be reduced to some extent), or Burley's superior ring generalship & clean/effective counterpunching...

I, myself, would lean towards Burley in this one at the end, as I could see him having great success in landing that straight & very accurate straight right hand of his over top of LaMotta's frequent left hooks, and I think Burley was plenty slick & smart enough to avoid a whole bunch of what LaMotta offers him from the offensive side...with Burley's subtle elusiveness, and very smart clinching/smothering tactics after he lands cleanly with the counters, it's going to be quite tough for LaMotta to land with any consistency or frequency on Burley with those left hooks of his, if you ask me...

Charley Burley W-15 Jake LaMotta


P.S. Have you seen Burley's only known fight that still exists, K-Dogg (versus Oakland Billy Smith)?

If not, let me know and I'll gladly upload it for you.

[K-DOGG]

This Burley/LaMotta fight is the one that intrigues me the most out of this second round, K-Dogg, and I'm very much looking forward to how the voting turns out for it.

Personally, I think this fight will undoubtably go the full distance, and I think the odds of a difference of opinion regarding the decision is very likely with the judges split on what they like better...either LaMotta's better workrate & aggressiveness (which, given Burley's style, would be reduced to some extent), or Burley's superior ring generalship & clean/effective counterpunching...

I, myself, would lean towards Burley in this one at the end, as I could see him having great success in landing that straight & very accurate straight right hand of his over top of LaMotta's frequent left hooks, and I think Burley was plenty slick & smart enough to avoid a whole bunch of what LaMotta offers him from the offensive side...with Burley's subtle elusiveness, and very smart clinching/smothering tactics after he lands cleanly with the counters, it's going to be quite tough for LaMotta to land with any consistency or frequency on Burley with those left hooks of his, if you ask me...

Charley Burley W-15 Jake LaMotta


P.S. Have you seen Burley's only known fight that still exists, K-Dogg (versus Oakland Billy Smith)?

If not, let me know and I'll gladly upload it for you.

Yogi...I didn't know any footage of Burley existed at all! I'm working off of a work computer with no video access, unfortunately....security clearance isn't high enough or some such bunk. Thank you for the offer, though. I sincerely appreciate it. Hopefully, I'll have a home PC before the end of the year. Once again, thank you for the thought.

I've read much about Burley and completely agree with your synopses.

[Yogi]

Yogi...I didn't know any footage of Burley existed at all! I'm working off of a work computer with no video access, unfortunately....security clearance isn't high enough or some such bunk. Thank you for the offer, though. I sincerely appreciate it. Hopefully, I'll have a home PC before the end of the year; but at the moment, it's just not possible. Once again, thank you for the thought.

I've read much about Burley and completely agree with your synopses.

Ah, that's too bad about you having no video access because I would've been more than happy to upload that for you.

And yeah, the fight with Smith is the only fight footage that I know of that still exists of Burley, and even though he may have been slipping somewhat by that point in time, it does give one a good glimpse of what his style was all about and how effective he was with it...

Nothing fancy at all, and the fight with Smith is no where near an exciting one. But it does show Burley's intelligent defensive skills (with his stance, footwork, subtle uppperbody/head movement & clinching in tight), counterpunching skills, and tremendous punching accuracy (especially that excellant right hand of his)...He just looks like a very tough guy for anybody to look good against, and may have been the most talented & successful "spoiler" type that I've ever seen.

[K-DOGG]

Thank you for the thought just the same. I've got descriptions of Burley in action; but no matter how well somebody paints a picture with words, it's never quite the same as seeing for ones' self.

[Yogi]

but no matter how well somebody paints a picture with words, it's never quite the same as seeing for ones' self.

Yeah, that is definately the truth and it does make predicting some of these matchups difficult to handicap...especially an all-time tournament like this one at middleweight, where there's either no footage available of the fighters involved (there's about 10 out of 32 that I haven't seen...although I've also read quite a bit about what those I haven't seen were said to have brought to the table) or it's footage of the fighters when they're not neccessarily at their very best...

It's unfortunate that the middleweight division is historically lacking in the amount of footage that's still available nowadays, and also a little bit suprising considering it's probably the second most prestigious division in the sport (for comparision sake, there's quite a bit more footage of the great lightweights available than there is of the middleweights).

[Yogi]

P.S. Just browsing your selections for the second round matchups, K-Dogg, and it all looks good to me...So if Brass could add a "+1" to those picks, that would be cool.

[Brassangel]

All right then, for every K-DOGG selection, I'll add one for Yogi.

[Brassangel]

I guess I'm just a little disappointed that I received so many PM's and replies within the thread stating that people did want this tournament to happen. So, I decided to make it happen (with your help, of course), and I'm only getting 5-6 people submitting votes. Hmm...

[K-DOGG]

I guess I'm just a little disappointed that I received so many PM's and replies within the thread stating that people did want this tournament to happen. So, I decided to make it happen (with your help, of course), and I'm only getting 5-6 people submitting votes. Hmm...

Brass, I would say that's due to one of two factors:

1.) Lack of confidence in their knowledge of middleweight greats....or just real lack of familiarity with many of these fighters. Most people usually specialize in the heavyweights and tend to forget about the other divisions. I readily admit I know more about the big boys than the middleweights; but I'm working on it.

2.) I know some people who just hate the whole mythical match-up concept....they don't like the speculation aspect.