Strongest fighter ever lived

[M26]

Butterfly has a point. Ali was able control Foreman in the clinches by pushing Foreman's neck down with his right hand while placing his his left glove in Foreman's armpit or tricep taking away Foreman's abilty to hit Ali with his free right hand. Foreman didn't manhandle Ali at all in the clinches and this is the topic at point. Functional strength and not punching power. Two different things.

Ali frequently tested his opponents strength early in fights by rough housing his opponents by pulling down on their neck. Chuvalo I and Bonevena fights are examples.

Ali looked in control against Foreman and was hardly brutalized in that fight unless you are talking about body punches. Foreman wasn't driving Ali back to the ropes with mid-ring exchanges. Instead Ali often willingly went to the ropes where he was comfortable fighting as he so often did this in training sessions against sharp shooting sparring partner Larry Holmes the heavy handed Roy Williams. The truth is, the Foreman fight resembled an Ali sparring session when Ali used to work on fighting off the ropes and coming off throwing shots near the end of each round.

Foreman did hit Ali alot to the body but Ali also deflected and muffled many punches with his forearms, elbows and gloves, and made Foreman miss head shots by timing them and pulling back. Foreman never had great balance and often reached and followed through with his power shots which caused him to fall forward in that fight ending up on top of Ali each time Ali pulled back from a missed punch.

It's interesting that Ali never considered Foreman one of his 10 toughest opponents.

Good post. Some K for you.

[tommyhearns804]

Originally Posted by SABBATH
Butterfly has a point. Ali was able control Foreman in the clinches by pushing Foreman's neck down with his right hand while placing his his left glove in Foreman's armpit or tricep taking away Foreman's abilty to hit Ali with his free right hand. Foreman didn't manhandle Ali at all in the clinches and this is the topic at point. Functional strength and not punching power. Two different things.

Ali frequently tested his opponents strength early in fights by rough housing his opponents by pulling down on their neck. Chuvalo I and Bonevena fights are examples.

Ali looked in control against Foreman and was hardly brutalized in that fight unless you are talking about body punches. Foreman wasn't driving Ali back to the ropes with mid-ring exchanges. Instead Ali often willingly went to the ropes where he was comfortable fighting as he so often did this in training sessions against sharp shooting sparring partner Larry Holmes the heavy handed Roy Williams. The truth is, the Foreman fight resembled an Ali sparring session when Ali used to work on fighting off the ropes and coming off throwing shots near the end of each round.

Foreman did hit Ali alot to the body but Ali also deflected and muffled many punches with his forearms, elbows and gloves, and made Foreman miss head shots by timing them and pulling back. Foreman never had great balance and often reached and followed through with his power shots which caused him to fall forward in that fight ending up on top of Ali each time Ali pulled back from a missed punch.

It's interesting that Ali never considered Foreman one of his 10 toughest opponents.
Ha good thing i put this kid on ignore so i won't have to see any of this childs post again.But anyway
Number 1 I said this a million times read "The life and Times of Muhammad Ali" And read what Ali said again he fought Foreman not you or anybody here who is posting.Ali said Foreman was so strong that when Foreman had this strength he couldn't even box him and that is one of the reasons he held on
2nd When did Ali just go to the ropes because for no reason?Ali said He went to the ropes because Foreman was much quicker on his feet than he could ever imagine and if he tried to out box Foreman he would get tired and be knocked out.So once he realize that he knew he had to find away to get Foreman tired and laying on the ropes and hoping Foreman would get tired just swinging wild at him and even then Ali said Foreman's blows were hurting him and several had him out on his feet.
3rd Ali said Foreman was the strongest fighter he ever fought and the hardest puncher he ever fought which shows how hard Foreman must punched because Foreman never landed any clean head punches and Shavers did and Foreman still was consider to punch harder by Ali( I know somebody will come along and say you heard Ali say after he fought Shavers he was the hardest puncher but Ali was mellowing later in his career and never really said anything bad about Shavers but years later when asked he said Foreman so i will take it to mean Foreman punched harder)
4th Ali said Foreman was the best figher he ever besides himself and beating Foreman proved that he was the greatest.The only fighter i ever heard Ali say was tough was Frazier even though Norton did Alot better than Frazier did against Ali so who knows who Ali really thougth was tough.
5 Ali never controlled Foreman.Let a 220 pound man pull down on your neck and let's see if you get tired.Ali never tied Foreman up in the whole fight.The only thing Ali did was lay on the ropes hoping and praying Foreman would get tired and when Foreman got close he would either pull down on Foremans neck or try to pull Foreman toward him and then push down on his head which should of gotten Ali DQ but he wasn't even warned.
6 When sparring Ali tried to stick and move which he planned to do against Foreman but Larry Holmes was good a cutting Ali off to that is why he spend so much time on the ropes getting hit on by Holmes(Which is why so many people thought Ali was a shot fighter when in reality he was just fighting better fighters than he fought earlier in this career)
7 None of Foreman body punches were really digging body punches.(Look at the few body punches Foreman threw against Frazier and Norton he got his weight in them and they dropped their hands after a few shots)Foreman loaded up on every punch her threw because he had no respect for Ali.Foreman thought he would just throw some wild bombs and land one and the fight would be over.And is heard this from the people who knew Foreman and trained him.Foreman had a huge ego.He was bound to lose and it just happened to be Ali to be the one who beat him.Nothing special Ali lost to Frazier and Norton Foreman lost to Ali.If you fight good fighters and i mean fighters who are good because they are good and not because the media builds them up you will lose.
But in any case most people will say Foreman is one of the strongest fighters who is known to live.

[SABBATH]

You could have spared yourself alot of time by actually reading the part where I said TOUGHEST opponents not strongest or hardest hitting.

I will post the following excerpt for the benefit of intelligent readers. tommyhearns804 need not respond.

On sparring for the Foreman fight...Norman Mailer The Fight:

"It was a study to watch Ali take punches. He would lie on the ropes and paw at his sparring partner..."

"Ali was always studying how to deaden such shots or punish the glove that threw the punch forever elaborating his inner comprehension of how to trap, damp, modify, mock, curve, ****, warp, distort, deflect, tip, and turn the bombs that came toward him, and to do this with a minimum of movement back against the ropes languid hands up. He invariably trained by a scenario that cast him as a fighter in deep fatigue."

"Ali lay on the ropes and took punches when he chose to and blocked them when he wished."

"Williams pawed at the air and Ali wrestled him around. He seemed to be working more now on wrestling than boxing as if curious to test his arms against William's strength."

Sounds to me that Ali was preparing his potential strategy for Foreman during these sparring sessions.

Ali-Foreman was a glorified sparring session for Ali.

ALI'S TEN TOUGHEST OPPONENTS-1980 CLAY COMMUNICATIONS GROUP

This list was made by Ali according to the opponents who gave him his toughest fights in order.

1. SONNY LISTON
2. JOE FRAZIER
3. DOUG JONES
4. KEN NORTON
5. LEON SPINKS
6. KARL MILDENBERGER
7. BOB FOSTER
8. OSCAR BONEVENA
9. JIMMY ELLIS
10. HENRY COOPER

Honourable mention:
Jerry Quarry, Joe Bugner, Mac Foster, George Chuvalo, Ernie Terrell, Alvin Lewis, Earnie Shavers.

The article ended with this quote:

"Where is George Foreman? Ron Lyle? Billy Daniels? Floyd Patterson? Jimmy Young? Oh well, they can't all be called his toughest fights can they?"

I will save space. If anyone is interested I will quote what Ali said regarding his reasons for each opponent.

[K-DOGG]

You could have spared yourself alot of time by actually reading the part where I said TOUGHEST opponents not strongest or hardest hitting.

I will post the following excerpt for the benefit of intelligent readers. tommyhearns804 need not respond.

On sparring for the Foreman fight...Norman Mailer The Fight:

"It was a study to watch Ali take punches. He would lie on the ropes and paw at his sparring partner..."

"Ali was always studying how to deaden such shots or punish the glove that threw the punch forever elaborating his inner comprehension of how to trap, damp, modify, mock, curve, ****, warp, distort, deflect, tip, and turn the bombs that came toward him, and to do this with a minimum of movement back against the ropes languid hands up. He invariably trained by a scenario that cast him as a fighter in deep fatigue."

"Ali lay on the ropes and took punches when he chose to and blocked them when he wished."

"Williams pawed at the air and Ali wrestled him around. He seemed to be working more now on wrestling than boxing as if curious to test his arms against William's strength."

Sounds to me that Ali was preparing his potential strategy for Foreman during these sparring sessions.

Ali-Foreman was a glorified sparring session for Ali.

ALI'S TEN TOUGHEST OPPONENTS-1980 CLAY COMMUNICATIONS GROUP

This list was made by Ali according to the opponents who gave him his toughest fights in order.

1. SONNY LISTON
2. JOE FRAZIER
3. DOUG JONES
4. KEN NORTON
5. LEON SPINKS
6. KARL MILDENBERGER
7. BOB FOSTER
8. OSCAR BONEVENA
9. JIMMY ELLIS
10. HENRY COOPER

Honourable mention:
Jerry Quarry, Joe Bugner, Mac Foster, George Chuvalo, Ernie Terrell, Alvin Lewis, Earnie Shavers.

The article ended with this quote:

"Where is George Foreman? Ron Lyle? Billy Daniels? Floyd Patterson? Jimmy Young? Oh well, they can't all be called his toughest fights can they?"

I will save space. If anyone is interested I will quote what Ali said regarding his reasons for each opponent.

Post the rest, please!

[Kid Achilles]

Yeah I'd love to hear Ali's reasons. Liston at #1? That seems very strange considering how easily he handled Liston.

[LondonRingRules]

========Butterfly has a point. Ali was able control Foreman in the clinches by pushing Foreman's neck down with his right hand while placing his his left glove in Foreman's armpit or tricep taking away Foreman's abilty to hit Ali with his free right hand. Foreman didn't manhandle Ali at all in the clinches and this is the topic at point. Functional strength and not punching power. Two different things.======

** You're both pointless.

Sure, Ali was pulling down on Foreman's neck but Foreman was busy punching. Many times when Ali tries to clinch Foreman just shoves him back. Ali could really do very little than lash out with some select flurries at times and he looked pitiful. His corner was screaming at him and thought he was getting killed, yet you claim it was just a glorified sparring session. Ali admits George had him out on his feet a couple of times in that bout.

Ali just managed to drop George at the right time just long enough to get the fight waved off by the ref. Ali collapsed in the middle of the ring seconds later, probably scared thinking that George was gonna beat the count, and has to be helped to his feet. You make it sound like he carried George back to his corner and then ascended into the heavens on a golden cloud.

[hemichromis]

ali had an easy time with liston are you sure that list was written by ali

[Southpaw Stinger]

I've heard Ali said somthing like Patterson was the fastest, Liston was the scariest, Foreman was the strongest and the toughest was Frazier. I'm sure thats what Ali said about his opponents.

[Southpaw16]

I firmly consider Muhammad Ali among the strongest fighters of all time. Notice, I am saying STRONGEST, not the hardest hitter. Ali was never pushed around by anyone, and could hold his own even when facing George Foreman.

All in all, I would say Foreman is the strongest, but Ali was right up there with him.

Oh come one!! Did you see the rumble in the jungle fight when Foreman was constantly forcing Ali into the ropes? As great as Ali was physical strength was not what made him great. Ali also had a lot of trouble with being forced into the ropes by Joe Frazier.

[SABBATH]

LondonRingRules
Ali could really do very little than lash out with some select flurries at times and he looked pitiful. His corner was screaming at him and thought he was getting killed. Ali admits George had him out on his feet a couple of times in that bout.

Ali just managed to drop George at the right time just long enough to get the fight waved off by the ref. Ali collapsed in the middle of the ring seconds later, probably scared thinking that George was gonna beat the count, and has to be helped to his feet.

LRR, your infatuation with Ali defeating Foreman on these threads is getting a little stale although it does help break up the monotony of your continuous rants about Ali losing to Leon Spinks.

Ali hardly looked pitiful in defeating Foreman. If anyone looked pitiful it was Foreman who stumbled off balance, reached, pawed and pushed at Ali all the while swinging for the fences with amateurish roundhouse punches that missed Ali's head by a country mile.

Foreman pawed at punches and was a sucker for a feint and Ali exploited this. Many times Ali feinted and as Foreman pawed at Ali's feint and leaned forward off balance Ali was able to land clean straight punches. Ali's closing flurries in rounds 3 and 5 are good examples of Ali exploiting this Foreman flaw.

What Ali's corner was yelling at Ali was "Don't gamble." Dundee can clearly be heard yelling this to Ali in the 5th round as Ali was against the ropes above him.

Ali didn't 'collapse' in the ring after the fight. Ali hated to be mobbed after a fight and wanted breathing room. Ali can clearly be seen telling the well wishers to get away and yelling at brother Rachman to put him down when he tries to pick him up in celebration. Ali then escapes the mob by sitting down and can clearly be seen on the video sitting down on the floor, knees bent forearms resting on his knees before being up again a few moments later. After Norton II when Bundini tried to move in on Ali and crowd him, Ali lashed out and punched Bundini in the head.

How tough for you is it to accept that Ali defeated Foreman? You have no excuses. Everything favoured Foreman. Younger, stronger, heavier hitter and full of confidence. Ali was past his prime at 32 years old conceeded 8 years had been defeated twice in the previous 3 years, once the previous year and had more wear and tear on his body having been in tougher fights. Ali hadn't scored a KO in 2 years when he stopped light-heavyweight Bob Foster. On top of all these advantages Foreman gets a 16 ft square ring (verified by Referee Zack Clayton interviewed on NBC TV Greatest Fights Ever Rumble In The Jungle) and Ali on the ropes and Foreman spends the fight stumbling around like an un-coordinated drunk unable to put together any succession of head shots with his man Ali imobile against the ropes, directly in front of him with his feet planted.

As for Ali being out on his feet a couple of times I'd like to know at which point. Foreman landed very few signifigant head shots at all in the fight. About the best one I recall was a pretty decent right upper-cut in Round 1. Ali's face was unscathed save for a slight discolourization to his right eye likely due to when Ali gets thumbed early in the 7th round.

Ali never staggered nor were his knees buckled and Ali was continually talking alot to Foreman as well. He hardly looked like a man out on his feet. Maybe you can enlighten the readership as to what point in the fight was Ali out on his feet?

Do your homework and actually watch the fight then do your research. Maybe then you can provide evidence to back up your claims.

Until then give it a rest.