James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[Scott9945]

I respect your opinion. But to me, it just highlights what a great fighter he was. Can you imagine for a second, a guy of Toney's size, who was out of shape, and who wasn't as skilled, fighting 3 top 10 HW's? They'd more than likely be killed.

I basically agree with all of that. Can't deny JT's skill or talent. I liked him better than I did Hopkins, but I have to respect that Hopkins showed up for every single one of his fights in top shape.

[robertzimmerman]

I basically agree with all of that. Can't deny JT's skill or talent. I liked him better than I did Hopkins, but I have to respect that Hopkins showed up for every single one of his fights in top shape.

Great post.

I agree entirely.

If Toney had possessed Bernard's mindset, how many losses would he have had? Not as many in my opinion.

The contrast between the two is like night and day.

Toney gorged himself at Burger King, while Hopkins literally measures his food everyday.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

You would be hard pressed to name 100 fighters better than toney in the history of boxing..

In atg rankings he is in the neighborhood of a Wilfred benetiz

While its fair to say he isn't a top tier atg like roy, pernell, leonard, hearns.. He is still an atg


I couldn't name another modern middleweight great that could go to heavy and **** away with Evander, Peter, Rahman, etc..

Toney was so gifted and talented he could come into a fight, fat, out of shape and just lean against the ropes and be able to hang with anyone.. That's just unreal talent..
I couldn't imagine floyd becoming fat and throwing down with kovolev, or roy getting fat and fighting Peter or Rahman...

[Scott9945]

You would be hard pressed to name 100 fighters better than toney in the history of boxing..

In atg rankings he is in the neighborhood of a Wilfred benetiz

While its fair to say he isn't a top tier atg like roy, pernell, leonard, hearns.. He is still an atg


I couldn't name another modern middleweight great that could go to heavy and **** away with Evander, Peter, Rahman, etc..

Toney was so gifted and talented he could come into a fight, fat, out of shape and just lean against the ropes and be able to hang with anyone.. That's just unreal talent..
I couldn't imagine floyd becoming fat and throwing down with kovolev, or roy getting fat and fighting Peter or Rahman...

Interesting that you mention Benitez. He had even more talent than Toney, but much less dedication.

Imagine Benitez with Hopkins' work ethic.

[sonnyboyx2]

I think so.

Did James Toney ever have an impressive dominant performance over a top opponent in his career? The only two I think that could arguably qualify are Iran Barkley and Vassily Jirov. But on the flipside Barkley is a decent opponent at best and although Toney beat Jirov clearly it was hardly a dominant performance.

A quick look into James Toney's career (not just the 90's)

Turned Pro in 1988, had a string of easy building fights as most pro's do until he fought cagey veteran Sanderline Williams in 1990.

This was a decent step up at the time, the fight was scored a draw. I scored the fight for Toney but it was reasonably close. You could see the difference in experience and despite the unlucky draw it was a good learning fight for Toney and a fight he avenged 3 months later in dominant fashion.

In 1991 he fought Merqui Sosa, undefeated prospect but expected to be an easy fight for the rising potential star Toney. Toney won by split decision, showing signs of struggle against what was supposed to be an easy opponent. I scored the fight for Toney after winning the first half of the fight plus a knockdown. He seemed to fade late and let Sosa back into the fight but the right man won IMO. Still, by no means dominant.

Later that year he fought his best opponent to date and possibly the best win of his career, Micheal Nunn. Nunn exposing many flaws In Toney's game was well ahead in the fight until Toney pulled it out the bag and got a late KO. A great win for Toney but far far from dominant.

His next fight after that he fought Reggie Johnson, IMO a very underrated fighter and very skilled fighter. Toney expected to win but yet again struggling badly, getting dropped and hurt in the second round and IMO losing the fight. Toney was awarded an SD in what was a close fight that could have gone either way, but for my money Johnson did enough to edge it.

Later that year Toney matched up with a great fighter and IMO the greatest Jr MW of all time in Mike McCallum in one of my favourite ever fights. Great back and forth and skills for both men. Very close fight that ended up a draw which IMO could not be fairer as I scored it a draw myself. More people seemed to think Toney edged it but many also felt Mcallum did. Can't argue with the result.

After one of the best fights I've ever seen, Toney's next fight possibly being his worst ever performance against Dave Tiberi, another expectation of an easy fight an alleged "drained" and "out of shape" Toney got gifted a split decision over Tiberi in one of the worst robberies I've personally ever seen. A clear cut win for Tiberi IMO.

Later that same year of 1992 Toney rematched Mike McCallum, the rematch not living up to the first encounter but still a good fight none the less. Much like many Toney fights Toney landing the cleaner flashier work but finding himself getting out worked consistently. The fight was scored for Toney by Majority decision. Once again a very close fight despite the ridiculous wide scorecards. I scored the fight for McCallum but can't argue with the decision.

After the McCallum rematch he fought two solid opponents in Doug DeWitt and Iran Barkley, beating both easily. As we entered 1993 and up until 1994 Toney fought mostly weak opposition outside of Tim Littles and Tony Thornton who were decent/solid wins.

His next fight was Prince Charles Williams who was considered to be a decent test. Despite struggling to dominate the fight he did pull out a KO in the final round.

His next fight against Roy Jones Jr. No need to talk about this fight everyone knows how it went. Toney was dominated every second of every round despite being the betting favourite.

His next fight was with a 14-0 relatively unknown Montel Griffin. Once again Toney falling short in a fight he was expected to win losing an MD. Very close fight that could have gone either way, I had Griffin just edging it.

After back to back loses, Toney fought weak opposition for the remainder of 1995 and 1996, until the rematch with Montel Griffin in 1997.

Griffin won the rematch by UD, however IMO Toney edged it.

Despite arguments for both sides IMO both of these fights were clearly very close and certainly not robberies. Toney once again finding a way to make a fight close and struggling to put on a dominant performance.

His next fight after that was a third fight with McCallum. This time Toney getting a clear decision over the ageing great.

With the momentum from the McCallum win Toney fought Drake Thadzi, once again expecting to be an easy fight against a sub-par opponent but at this point you'd be naive to think any fight is easy for Toney. He went on to lose to Thadzi by MD. A close-ish fight but a fight that Toney certainly lost. Toney had the "out of shape" excuse ready as per usual.

After an extremely disappointing loss to Thadzi, Toney didn't do much from 1997-2003 in which he fought mostly poor opposition until he got his shot at Crusierweight Champ Vassily Jirov.

Toney the betting underdog pulled out what is arguably the best win of his career beating Jirov by UD in a back and forth war. Rivalling McCallum 1 in one of the best fights of his career and certainly one of his best wins. However despite the goodwin it was still far from dominant despite clearly being ahead on the cards.

His next fight he moved up to Heavyweight to beat the shell Evander Holyfield in a fight that IMO should never have happened.

After this there's not much of note to talk about with Toney other than a failed drug test vs John Ruiz aswell as two valiant efforts vs Sam Peter.

As you can see running themes in James Toney's career are struggling with sub-par opposition and being incapable of putting on a dominant performance.

Can you name a single dominant and impressive win over a top level opponent?

I honestly can't.

He failed to dominate or clearly beat Tiberi, McCallum (first 2), Johnson, Griffin, Thadzi and struggled with S.Williams and Sosa.

Touching again on his best wins, Nunn and Jirov. He didn't like dominant in either fight, especially Nunn.

People say Roy Jones fought weak opponents yet Jones blasted out Sosa in 2 rounds, Griffin in one round, dominated and shut out Reggie Johnson. These are "weak opponents" Toney struggled with and arguably lost to.

IMO Toney in the 90's went 0-1 with Reggie Johnson, 0-1 with Dave Tiberi, went 1-1 with Montel Griffin, 0-1-1 with McCallum, 0-1 with Roy Jones and 0-1 with Drake Thazdi.

Best wins being Nunn, Grffin 2 and Barkley.

If we look at his resume for the 90's specifically is it impressive? It's littered with poor performances against sub par opponents and he struggled or lost against every good fighter he faced.

What's your view? Is Toney overrated? If he's considered an ATG then certainly, IMO.

Good analysis of Toney's career. However what i disagree with you on is you not being able to see Toney winning a top level opponent?.... Surely McCallum, Reggie Johnson, Sosa, Jirov, Nunn, Barkley, Rahman, Littles are all Top Level opponents?... But what you skip over is the Prince Charles Williams win.. Prince Charles Williams was no slouch !

Can you name for me another middleweight champion in all boxing history, who moved to heavyweight and beat the calibre of opponents James Toney beat?... Holyfield fought in two World Heavyweight Title fights, after losing to James Toney. Toney landed more over-hand rights on Holyfield, than any fighter he fought in his whole career.

Can you name for me another middleweight champion over the last 40yrs, who has fought and beaten the calibre of opponents James Toney has fought and beaten?.... McCallum (3 times), Nunn, Barkley, DeWitt, Holyfield, Rahman (twice), Peter (twice) Oquendo, Ruiz, Charles Williams, Jirov, Sosa, Reggie Johnson, Griffin (twice)... a truly incredible resume!

A link on Toney vs Griffin (1) watch from 1.01:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vvp79hZlQE

I go along with Foreman on this one, but we all see fights different.

The most overrated fighter of the 90s

[IronDanHamza]

Good analysis of Toney's career. However what i disagree with you on is you not being able to see Toney winning a top level opponent?.... Surely McCallum, Reggie Johnson, Sosa, Jirov, Nunn, Barkley, Rahman, Littles are all Top Level opponents?... But what you skip over is the Prince Charles Williams win.. Prince Charles Williams was no slouch !

Can you name for me another middleweight champion in all boxing history, who moved to heavyweight and beat the calibre of opponents James Toney beat?... Holyfield fought in two World Heavyweight Title fights, after losing to James Toney. Toney landed more over-hand rights on Holyfield, than any fighter he fought in his whole career.

Can you name for me another middleweight champion over the last 40yrs, who has fought and beaten the calibre of opponents James Toney has fought and beaten?.... McCallum (3 times), Nunn, Barkley, DeWitt, Holyfield, Rahman (twice), Peter (twice) Oquendo, Ruiz, Charles Williams, Jirov, Sosa, Reggie Johnson, Griffin (twice)... a truly incredible resume!

A link on Toney vs Griffin (1) watch from 1.01:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vvp79hZlQE

I go along with Foreman on this one, but we all see fights different.

The most overrated fighter of the 90s

I said he didn't beat a top level fighter in dominant or impressive fashion. Not didn't beat any top level fighters.

I had him losing to Johnson, McCallum 2 (first one a draw), Griffin 1, Tiberi, Jones and Thazdi all in his prime years. Doesn't that mean anything?

Even the fights I had him winning, Griffin 2, that was still a close fight that could have gone either way.

Micheal Nunn was a very good win but once again he looked unimpressive in that fight.

Yeah if you look at the names he fought at face value yeah it's a "great resume" but if you actually look at the performances and results then it's really not that impressive.

Like I said previously the only other two I can see an argument for being more overrated are Lopez and Lewis. Who else is there?

[IronDanHamza]

You're questioning my standards?

Ha! What a joker you are.

You don't know the meaning of the word OBJECTIVE.

Not an impressive performance against Nunn?

How do you figure that?

Nunn was an elite, pure boxer. He was a tall, fast, southpaw. Toney was behind, then started to get back into the fight, before eventually stopping him. Can you even comprehend what he was up against?

After Toney had left MW, no, he was hardly ever in top shape. That means that he was extremely unprofessional. That doesn't mean he wasn't an ATG.

I'm going to keep things really simple for you:

If he could successfully move all the way up to HW and have success against top 10 HW's, whilst he was fat and out of shape, at almost 40, after 70 plus fights, then think how good he'd have been had he have had the discipline of Bernard Hopkins.

Why don't you have a think about that?

You're dealing with fantasies and shoulda woulda coulda's here. I don't "imagine" what he "could" have been I deal with what he was.

Yes I do question your standards if you think he has an ATG resume. Yes I do.

How many times must I explain that the PERFORMANCE wasn't impressive or dominant. The KO was, yes. The performance wasn't and Toney has zero of those, impressive dominant performance over a top opponent.

How is my post not objective? I've been absolutely fair and objective in every fight I've broken down for Toney.

Said he deserved the W for the Williams draw, the Sosa SD, the second Griffin L. I had Toney winning all of those. If I wasn't being objective or if I was being biased I could easily claim he lost all those.

Even the fights I did have him losing or drawing, Johnson, McCallum 1 & 2 and Griffin 1 I've said were very close and he could easily have got the W in all of those.

Only Tiberi, Jones and Thadzi did I have him losing clearly.

[IronDanHamza]

The running theme in his thread is;

Toney was always out of shape, imagine if he wasn't?

I see the fans have that convenient excuse ready just as quickly as Toney did.

Toney went up to Heavyweight and went 0-2-1 with heavyweights and 1-0 with shot heavyweights.

Fair enough. If that's the arguments being posed for Toney I can't argue nor agree.

[IronDanHamza]

I don't know what to say you.

It's baffling.

Nunn and McCallum were true elite fighters, who he beat when he was in his early 20's. It makes no difference how he won those fights.

Look at who they themselves beat. And then look at who they beat.

Dropping a decision to Roy at 25 means nothing. I don't think there's any SMW in the history of the division who I'd have favoured over Roy at 25.

Did you see the Griffin fights? Do you know about his preparation? Do you know how many fights he'd had at that point? Was Griffin better or equal to Nunn and McCallum?

Griffin was a good fighter, and he presented a tough challenge stylistically. But I don't think he'd have beaten Toney while at his best. This is what you're overlooking. How many former MW's in their 20's, move up to CW? He moved up to CW, because he could no longer make LHW healthily. And how could killing yourself on the scales after 50 fights not have an affect on your performances? Look at him at HW. Why do you think he ended up at HW looking like he did at 230 plus pounds?

Look at Roy at HW. Him and Toney were the same size. Yet Roy had to hire Mackie Shilstone to bulk him up to fight Ruiz, whereas Toney went up by not keeping himself in shape.

Are you going to answer my question?

What do you think would have happened if Froch, Kessler or Ward etc, fought a big hard hitting HW, with 40 plus pounds of body fat on them?

"It doesn't matter how he won" Really? Performances don't matter to you?

I didn't have Toney beating McCallum I had the first one a draw and the second one for McCallum.

McCallum was defintely an elite fighter, as I've once again already stated. Much more so than Toney, IMO.

Did I see the Griffin fight? Why are you asking me questions that I've clearly answered in my OP? Yes I've seen it and I scored it for Griffin who IMO is a very good and underrated fighter. Griffin was a 14-0 novice when he beat Toney.

Yeah I'll answer your question, what would happen if Ward moved up to HW and fought Holyfield, Peter and Rahman? Assuming Ward was also on performance enhancing drugs, I could easily see him going 1-2-1 in those fights respectively. That's neither here nor there anyway because people move and adjust to higher weights easier than others and we are talking fantasies on what other would or could do (much like most of Toney's career)

[sonnyboyx2]

Here is a link to the Ring Mag annual ratings 1995

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Th..._Ratings:_1995

Looking at those ratings, James Toney is ranked No7 Cruiserweights. Toney has beaten Top Contenders in every division of these rankings, from Middleweight up to Heavyweight. 7 highly rated fighters in 5 different weight divisions all lost to James Toney. This is an incredible testament to his fighting abilities and skills.

The most overrated fighter of the 1990s would have to be Kostya Tzyzu.