Prime RJJ's weaknesses.

[Combat Talk Radio]

Roy was so fast, his speed would have bamboozled Steve Collins. There's no way he'd have countered Roy in my opinion. The Eubank fights tell me all I need to know. Roy was on another planet in his prime.

Nah. Roy Jones straight ducked him and for good reason (besides their promoters playing games). Collins wanted that fight BAD because he knew good and well he had Jones' number.

Collins was a beast in the 90's, one of the best to lace gloves. The only person he fought that gave him problems was Mike McCallum, who was stylistically superior to everyone he fought at the time. Even James Toney, as good as he was, barely got past McCallum at middleweight.

You can't judge based on the Eubank fights. Eubank had no concept of defense. His offense WAS his defense. Why do you think he struggled against Watson? Look at who has beaten Eubank - fighters that just went at him and evaded his offense.

If you want to see how good Collins was, you need to watch both Nigel Benn fights.

[TBear]

I've never heard that's why he spilt with Big Roy. That split was inevitable, it'd been brewing for a long time. He wouldn't let Roy off of the leash, and according to Fred Levin, he even hid title shot opportunities from him.

Roy did have issues with southpaws, as most fighters do. Eric Harding gave him a tough night, as did Tarver, obviously. His first 3 losses weren't to southpaws though.

oops!!! Should have said his first true loss other than DQ.

[robertzimmerman]

Half the dudes you mention or reference roy didn't fight..

I will take kovolev, Ward,stevenson, beterbiev, barrera, over woods Harding, griffin, gonzalez..

And while mw and SMW were really stacked at the time, roy only had one major fight with toney, and hopkins was nothing more than a domestic level NABF espn champ fighting for a vacant on an undercard, it wasn't till the passage of time did that win become great.. You can't give credit to a guy for fighting in a tough division of he didn't fight the other guys.. He had one big middleweight fight and one big supermiddle fight.. It wasn't till light heavy that he settled down and had a nice long run albeit in a division that really had no legitimate threats or big fights

I mentioned 9 guys and Roy fought 5 of them.

Including Roy himself, I think the division was stronger than today.

I'm not giving him credit for fighting in a tough MW division.

Again, Roy moved up from SMW because he couldn't get fights with Liles or Benn/Nardiello to unify the division.

Again, by the time he'd moved up and unified the LHW division, it was a stronger division than MW, SMW and CW. He was in the strongest division possible. The division did have legitimate threats and potential big fights, but the public were robbed of a Dariusz fight due to politics.

[robertzimmerman]

revelated,

Nah. Roy Jones straight ducked him and for good reason (besides their promoters playing games). Collins wanted that fight BAD because he knew good and well he had Jones' number.

In 96, Roy had no reason to fight him. He couldn't fight Liles for the WBA, and he couldn't fight Benn/Nardiello for the WBC. So there was no point in fighting Collins who only held the lightly regarded WBO belt.

Then in 99, Collins wanted Roy again. Which I have to respect. But nobody was interested, because Collins had been out of the ring for 2 years, and Lou DiBella and HBO wanted Roy to instead unify the LHW division against Reggie Johnson. DiBella did say though, that Collins could fight Calzaghe, with the winner then potentially facing Roy. And Collins agreed initially. But he got hurt whilst preparing to fight someone on a Calzaghe undercard and he decided to retire after medical advice.

I respect your opinion on how a Roy-Collins fight may have turned out. But in my honest opinion, it's absurd to even think that Collins could have beaten Roy when he was in his 20's. Collins was unbelievably tough, with great heart. But he was limited. How on earth did he have his number? Roy's speed was unbelievable. I don't think he'd have gotten anywhere near him.

Collins was a beast in the 90's, one of the best to lace gloves. The only person he fought that gave him problems was Mike McCallum, who was stylistically superior to everyone he fought at the time. Even James Toney, as good as he was, barely got past McCallum at middleweight.

One of the best to lace up gloves? He lost all of his early big fights, and his claim to fame was beating a slightly faded Eubank in two close fights, as well as a shot Nigel Benn.

You can't judge based on the Eubank fights. Eubank had no concept of defense. His offense WAS his defense. Why do you think he struggled against Watson? Look at who has beaten Eubank - fighters that just went at him and evaded his offense.

Collins was EASY to hit. He was a great fighter, but he wasn't a great boxer. How would he have hit Roy and hurt him? He'd have been fired up and he'd have pressured him, but better fighters than Collins couldn't get to Roy and hurt him. His incredible speed and reflexes meant that he was extremely hard to hit. Collins would have taken punches that he just wouldn't have seen.

If you want to see how good Collins was, you need to watch both Nigel Benn fights.

Benn was shot. He came out of retirement after he'd lost to Malinga. He even had to place a large bet on himself to just to fire him up. And the only reason they fought a rematch, is because Benn twisted his ankle in the first fight. Having 2 wins over Benn may have looked good on paper, but in reality they were nothing special at all. Those fights don't tell us anything.

[Combat Talk Radio]

revelated,
In 96, Roy had no reason to fight him. He couldn't fight Liles for the WBA, and he couldn't fight Benn/Nardiello for the WBC. So there was no point in fighting Collins who only held the lightly regarded WBO belt.

Collins called him out. THE CHAMPION called him out. How often does that happen? A belt is a belt. If Jones felt he could have beaten Collins he should have stepped up. He didn't. I call that a duck.

Then in 99, Collins wanted Roy again. Which I have to respect. But nobody was interested, because Collins had been out of the ring for 2 years, and Lou DiBella and HBO wanted Roy to instead unify the LHW division against Reggie Johnson. DiBella did say though, that Collins could fight Calzaghe, with the winner then potentially facing Roy. And Collins agreed initially. But he got hurt whilst preparing to fight someone on a Calzaghe undercard and he decided to retire after medical advice.

Like I said, promoter games. If Roy Jones was half the man he claimed to be back then, he should have said, "Bounce that, this dude is calling me out? Let's do it."

I respect your opinion on how a Roy-Collins fight may have turned out. But in my honest opinion, it's absurd to even think that Collins could have beaten Roy when he was in his 20's. Collins was unbelievably tough, with great heart. But he was limited. How on earth did he have his number? Roy's speed was unbelievable. I don't think he'd have gotten anywhere near him.

Roy's speed was still unbelievable when Tarver sparked him. What's your point?

Anything can happen in boxing. I think that fight should have happened and I still feel that Collins would have caught him coming in. Hell, I think B-Hop would have decisioned him had Roy not pulled a Brandon Rios. B-Hop, Collins, Kovalev, Floyd, even Calzaghe were ring intelligent fighters.

One of the best to lace up gloves? He lost all of his early big fights

Come on man.

Collins lost THREE fights; never knocked down, never knocked out, never stopped. And unlike many of his peers, was still stopping/KO'ing fighters all the way to retirement.

and his claim to fame was beating a slightly faded Eubank in two close fights, as well as a shot Nigel Benn.

Eubank was nowhere near faded. He was under 30 - 2 years younger than Collins when they fought and up to that point Eubank went 40+ fights without losing and only one draw Compared to Collins' 28 fights and 3 losses, with Eubank having a 2" reach advantage. What are you talking about? Eubank was 100% the favorite to win in both fights. The first fight totally shocked the British boxing world.


Benn was on the shots but still dangerous with power. Let's not kid ourselves here. Benn was still in his early 30's when they fought and he got stopped because he was clumsy. Reminded me a lot of a more powerful Tim Bradley.

Collins was EASY to hit. He was a great fighter, but he wasn't a great boxer. How would he have hit Roy and hurt him? He'd have been fired up and he'd have pressured him, but better fighters than Collins couldn't get to Roy and hurt him. His incredible speed and reflexes meant that he was extremely hard to hit. Collins would have taken punches that he just wouldn't have seen.

I disagree Collins was easy to hit but it doesn't matter since again, Collins was NEVER knocked down or out in his career. Which means he had a granite chin and he faced some punchers. Roy Jones might have gotten shots off but without a catchweight I firmly believe Collins would have caught him coming in.

[billeau2]

He'd obviously taken a lot of confidence from their first fight.

That was a great win by Tarver in the rematch, but I'd hardly say Roy had been exposed.

Well I would. he was set upon in the same matter by Johnson. Johnson saw Tarver and realized that if he just walked through Roy, he would not be looking like James Toney against Roy, and he pressured Roy in a manner that guys just didn't do before Tarver.

great fighters are remarkable, they stand at the apex of an apex so to speak, but in the big leagues when a guy has a weakness, its getting tested.

[robertzimmerman]

Well I would. he was set upon in the same matter by Johnson. Johnson saw Tarver and realized that if he just walked through Roy, he would not be looking like James Toney against Roy, and he pressured Roy in a manner that guys just didn't do before Tarver.

great fighters are remarkable, they stand at the apex of an apex so to speak, but in the big leagues when a guy has a weakness, its getting tested.

I think we're at cross wires.

You mean that Tarver exposed him by destroying his aura of invincibility?

[robertzimmerman]

revelated,

Collins called him out. THE CHAMPION called him out. How often does that happen? A belt is a belt. If Jones felt he could have beaten Collins he should have stepped up. He didn't. I call that a duck.

You can call it what you want. That's your opinion. But as well as being the greatest sport on earth, (in my opinion) boxing is also a business, and everyone's circumstances are different.

Back in 96, the WBO wasn't respected like it is today. Again, Roy couldn't get fights with the WBA and WBC champs to unify. So his options were:

To fight Collins for the WBO.

To move up to LHW for a new challenge.

Roy picked the latter option.

When Joe Calzaghe was young and up and coming, Collins didn't want to fight him. Was that a duck? Not in my opinion. When Joe was at the end of his career, he didn't want to fight Froch. When Froch was at the end of his career, he didn't want to fight DeGale. Just because fights don't get made, it doesn't automatically constitute as a duck.

Like I said, promoter games. If Roy Jones was half the man he claimed to be back then, he should have said, "Bounce that, this dude is calling me out? Let's do it."

From what I've read, Roy initially told Stan Levin (his advisor) to make the fight. But after speaking with his other advisor Murad Muhammad, he was steered towards unifying against Reggie instead. I've got so much respect for Steve flying to Florida to call out Roy like that. But again, he'd been out 2 years, he'd never fought at LHW, and the fight wouldn't have brought in much money. Roy had already been heavily criticised for having just fought Ricky Frazier, and the network didn't want a Collins fight. Again, boxing is a ruthless business. The other thing to note, is that it was actually a blessing it never happened. Because Collins retired while preparing for his next fight, due to medical advice. He apparently collapsed during camp.

Roy's speed was still unbelievable when Tarver sparked him. What's your point?

Anything can happen in boxing. I think that fight should have happened and I still feel that Collins would have caught him coming in. Hell, I think B-Hop would have decisioned him had Roy not pulled a Brandon Rios. B-Hop, Collins, Kovalev, Floyd, even Calzaghe were ring intelligent fighters.

Yes, fighters can get caught. But I can't envisage Collins catching him back in his 20's.

Collins wasn't great technically, he wasn't fast, and he wouldn't have presented Roy with the stylistic problem that Tarver presented him with. Not forgetting of course, that Roy was a different fighter at 27, to the version who Tarver fought. Collins was very hittable, and Roy had the fastest hands in the world. He was also extremely hard to hit clean. I respect your opinion, but Roy was on completely on another level to Collins.

Pulling a Brandon Rios? What do you mean?

Come on man.

Collins lost THREE fights; never knocked down, never knocked out, never stopped. And unlike many of his peers, was still stopping/KO'ing fighters all the way to retirement.

He couldn't beat fighters who were technically better than him. He relied on grit, aggression and determination more than anything. He had very good skills, but he was never elite.

How on earth was he one of the best to lace them up? That's a gross exaggeration.

Eubank was nowhere near faded. He was under 30 - 2 years younger than Collins when they fought and up to that point Eubank went 40+ fights without losing and only one draw Compared to Collins' 28 fights and 3 losses, with Eubank having a 2" reach advantage. What are you talking about? Eubank was 100% the favorite to win in both fights. The first fight totally shocked the British boxing world.

He was mentally scarred by the Watson fight. He'll tell you that himself, as well as Barry Hearn. He was never the same. He'd lost his killer instinct, which of course was understandable. I'm not saying he was shot, but he was never the same. When he fought Collins, he was extremely lucky to still have his unbeaten record intact. He admitted that Benn deserved the decision in the rematch, he admitted to getting outboxed by Schommer, and many people thought he'd lost to Ray Close. His form was hit and miss leading up to the fight with Collins.

Benn was on the shots but still dangerous with power. Let's not kid ourselves here. Benn was still in his early 30's when they fought and he got stopped because he was clumsy. Reminded me a lot of a more powerful Tim Bradley.

Age and ring age are two different things. Did you see the Malinga fight? He came out of retirement for one last hurrah and had to put a huge bet on his head to get up for the fight. He even admitted that he was kind of gone, and 90% of fighters never talk like that. It was a huge fight, because like Eubank, he was a legend of British boxing. But beating that version of Benn wasn't a huge achievement.

I disagree Collins was easy to hit but it doesn't matter since again, Collins was NEVER knocked down or out in his career. Which means he had a granite chin and he faced some punchers. Roy Jones might have gotten shots off but without a catchweight I firmly believe Collins would have caught him coming in.

It doesn't matter that he was never knocked out in his career. He'd never faced a phenom like Roy, who possessed otherworldly speed, with genuine one punch knockout power in either hand. He was knocked down, Eubank knocked him down. Again, you're entitled to your opinion. But Roy was so fast, with unorthodox reflexes, I don't think Collins would have caught him coming in. Again, Collins would have been easy to hit, and he didn't possess great hand speed. His game plan would have been to apply relentless pressure in trying to walk Roy down.

Here's a reminder of just how fast Roy was:

https://vk.com/doc120421579_25352809...94860ba2d4739f

[billeau2]

I think we're at cross wires.

You mean that Tarver exposed him by destroying his aura of invincibility?

Yes. Pretty much. It also showed if Roy got tagged he had some problems.

[robertzimmerman]

Yes. Pretty much. It also showed if Roy got tagged he had some problems.

True.

It's a shame we never got to see Roy fight Tarver in 2000. That would have been interesting.

Regarding Glen Johnson, I've got a huge amount of respect for him. But I really can't envisage that result, had they fought pre Ruiz. He obviously capitalised on Tarver's performance. And Roy should never have fought Glen when he did. Personally, I think he was still in shock from the Tarver defeat, and he just wanted to fight ASAP to eradicate the loss and get back to winning ways. But without taking anything away from Glen, that wasn't Roy in there. It looked like someone else completely. According to a few people, Roy didn't even train properly for that fight, he just went through the motions on autopilot.