Jack Dempsey was not a great fighter

[Frazier's 15th round]

IMO Ali beat Frazier more convincingly in the second fight than Frazier beat Ali in the first fight.

The judges, and logic, would disagree with you. Ali did nothing in the second fight except dance around and hold. Frazier didn't do much either, but at least he wanted to fight.

[Kid Achilles]

2nd fight was very close and Ali won it mainly illegally by holding around the neck. Depending on the ref, Frazier could have won it. Frazier won the first fight on anyone's scorecards (assuming they understand the criteria for scoring a fight), and without fouling.

[Abe Attell]

Ali held his opponents head down in a lot of fights after prison...he held George's down all night in their fight...dam, that actually sounds gay

[K-DOGG]

Ali held his opponents head down in a lot of fights after prison...he held George's down all night in their fight...dam, that actually sounds gay

LOL!!!!!!!!


****. I needed that.

[SABBATH]

2nd fight was very close and Ali won it mainly illegally by holding around the neck. Depending on the ref, Frazier could have won it. Frazier won the first fight on anyone's scorecards (assuming they understand the criteria for scoring a fight), and without fouling.

Interesting statement considering this is a Jack Dempsey thread. Kid I want you to watch this video of Dempsey-Gibbons and observe how often Dempsey willingly clinches, grabs and holds and hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6npcgZUQW4k

Now watch Ali-Frazier II.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3_avtL_Y_0

Certainly looks to these eyes that Ali did more punching, landed many more clean punches and clinched a hell of a lot less than Dempsey did in the Gibbons fight.

[Kid Achilles]

Clinching is one thing, holding behind the head and pushing the head down is another.

I know Dempsey fouled and fought dirty at times: he hit low, he held and hit (as does Gibbons in that fight), as well as hit on the break. This is no secret to anyone who knows Dempsey. The current tangent in this thread is not about Dempsey though, but about Ali vs. Frazier II and Ali's fouling in that fight that went unpunished. I saw the 2nd Ali-Frazier fight recently: it was on television a few months ago. Ali held Frazier behind the head often and generally made it a lot less exciting of a fight than it could have been. I'm watching it again now and Frazier does uncharaceristically very well early on (despite getting wobbled a little in the 2nd, of which a great deal was made but he wasn't in much trouble if you ask me) when Ali is not holding as often. He scores with the cleaner and harder blows while Ali's punches are off and the ones that do land are not very flush. When it was on TV, I left that fight unimpressed with Ali's performance, perhaps because I had always been told it was a one sided affair. It was a close fight.

[SABBATH]

A check of the scoring would show it was not a one-sided fight, however Ali landed more, cleaner punches than Frazier.

Regarding Ali's clinching here is referee Tony Perez and his reasoning for not penalizing Ali for "fouling".

"...I couldn't do anything because it was like Joe was happy laying on Ali's chest, waiting for me to break them apart. That's the way it was the whole fight. Joe would come in, punching, bobbing, weaving. He'd score one or two shots, and just lay there in a clinch like he was resting. All he had to do was bend at the knees. Get down low so Ali can't hold anymore...His own corner told him to do that, but it seemed like he was content to be in a clinch."

Ali's explanation for holding Frazier behind the head in the clinches was to prevent a clash of heads. Ali maintained that Frazier would try getting his head under Ali's chin, a common tactic used by experienced infighters (see Duran-Leonard I).

[butterfly1964]

2nd fight was very close and Ali won it mainly illegally by holding around the neck. Depending on the ref, Frazier could have won it. Frazier won the first fight on anyone's scorecards (assuming they understand the criteria for scoring a fight), and without fouling.

The second fight wasn't that close. Frazier didn't get shut out, but Ali definetely outlanded him, and hurt Frazier, wheras, i can't recall any instance where Ali was in serious trouble. He used his legs more in the second fight than the first (or third for that matter), and he cleanly won the decision.

[butterfly1964]

Interesting statement considering this is a Jack Dempsey thread. Kid I want you to watch this video of Dempsey-Gibbons and observe how often Dempsey willingly clinches, grabs and holds and hits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6npcgZUQW4k

Now watch Ali-Frazier II.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3_avtL_Y_0

Certainly looks to these eyes that Ali did more punching, landed many more clean punches and clinched a hell of a lot less than Dempsey did in the Gibbons fight.

Haha, good observation SABBATH.

[Kid Achilles]

That's Sabbath, not Yogi.