Analysing Joe Gans

[Scott9945]

There certainly are different ways to rate fighters in an alltime-sense. You choose h2h and rank Gans top 25. I reckon that you do so by putting Gans against the other great LW's under modern conditions ie 12 rounds, big gloves, stricter ref's etc.

I'd still think Gans in my own subjective opinion, would fare better even in a modern era, but how would your ranking change it it was the others who where thought back to fighting at the turn of the last century?

Anyway I put Gans at no. 1. That is based on me emphasizing resume more than anything else.

Joe Gans had an amazing career considering he died at 35 and had so much against him. He did lose to Sam Langford, but he had fought the night before in a different city!

[The Old LefHook]

Joe Gans had an amazing career considering he died at 35 and had so much against him. He did lose to Sam Langford, but he had fought the night before in a different city!

I didn't know he fought the night before.

[joeandthebums]

Joe Gans had an amazing career considering he died at 35 and had so much against him.

Except for Nolan insistence of Gans making weight with equipment on prior to the first Gans-Nelson contest, (which Nelson also had to endure) what other examples are there?

[JimEarl]

Except for Nolan insistence of Gans making weight with equipment on prior to the first Gans-Nelson contest, (which Nelson also had to endure) what other examples are there?

No according to William Gildea's book it was only the contractual requirement for Gans who had to weigh in three times, the last hours before entering the ring at fight time. He had to forgo his hand wraps to make the weight and so he broke his hand in the 26th round.

http://www.thefightcity.com/fight-city-legends-4-old-master/

I believe that Ay**** and Scott's book claims that the 133 limit was probably in place specifically for Gans during his reign because he sometimes had trouble making the weight.

There was plenty stacked against Gans back then. Whatever his unscrupulous manager had him do, It was probably necessary for Gans to go along with the program. He may have been popular with many fans but not necessarily with the boxing powers that be or even all sportswriters at the time.

[joeandthebums]

No according to William Gildea's book it was only the contractual requirement for Gans who had to weigh in three times, the last upon entering the ring at fight time. He had to forgo his hand wraps to make the weight and so he broke his hand in the 26th round.

Haven't read the book so interesting. Not heard about the hand wraps.

Gans did agree to each demand set by Nolan, despite their nature due to his desire for the large purse.

I believe the 133 limit was in place specifically for Gans during his reign because he sometimes had trouble making the weight. He may have been popular with many fans but not necessarily with the boxing powers that be or even all sportswriters at the time.

133-pounds was the then lightweight limit and Gans as champion often fought above the limit, adjusted the limit to suit or weighed-in privately.

That was why I asked the question, because Gans did seem to have a pretty good time of it.

[JimEarl]

Haven't read the book so interesting. Not heard about the hand wraps.

Gans did agree to each demand set by Nolan, despite their nature due to his desire for the large purse.

Nelson got the lion's share of the purse in each affair. Can't remember the details but it was something like 2 or 3 to 1.

That was why I asked the question, because Gans did seem to have a pretty good time of it.

Well he might've but often against a stacked deck. Knowing boxing a little I'm not doubting that considering attitudes of that era.

[McGoorty]

Wrong assumption about my standards. I always send the moderns back in time to fight the oldsters under their conditions, unless otherwise instructed. I can do it both ways, but that is my default.

But note that I have not sent Gans or a mythical opponent anywhere yet. I have not mentioned anyone that he would or would not beat, I only placed him roughly in the top 25.

Prospectively, as I learn more about some of Gans' opponents, I might gain a sense of his proper placement. I would first like some kind of breakdown on the styles of those he did defeat, which I am not even sure is available. I have no problem seeing that Gans can handle a head-first brawler. I am more concerned how he would deal with other styles and techniques that were not fully developed in his time.

My strong guess would be that Joe never even dealt with a consistent high guard. I am not at this point aware if he ever faced a mover a la Tunney or Mike Gibbons or near their quality. I know he never saw a peekaboo. Of course Gans is likely to show the moderns a few things they never saw, as well. However, combination punching was a different animal then. Fifteen blows coming at you in a series is different from rwo or three. I am extremely confident that Joe never dealt with modern combination punching.

Gans, will, however, enjoy a huge advantage in that the old horsehair gloves allowed less careless combination punching than today's pillows. Their padding could be (and often was) kneeded to the side, exposing raw knuckle covered only by leather. Gans is likely to win a few mythical matchups (which is what these are) simply on knuckle damage incurred by his modern opponents.

So ranking Gans only in the top 25 so far, without more detail, I think has more to do with my lack of knowledge of the range of styles he faced than whose time period will have home field advantage.

A scenario I find interesting is to let them fight with any eqipment they choose, modern or ancient. The modern boys would enjoy the extra blocking advantages of bigger gloves, while Gans' smaller gloves would retain their potential to slip through smaller cracks. Joe will get to pick a different pair of shoes, maybe with some tassles.

I never consider anything but a 15 rounder for this type of contest. One of my other consistencies is that I will not consider 12 round mythical matchups, which shows the scorn in which I hold contemporary standards.

As I said the other day in either this thread or the McLarnin / Leonard one, the 1900 to 1920 era was a very colourful one and a lot has to do with the vast amount of styles, virtually every fighter had a fairly unique style and with most fights not being filmed a fighter had to either have seen his opponent fight live before or just have to work the guy out during the fight, sure there seems to have been no big combination punchers or peek a boo types but don't make the mistake of thing fighters didn't throw big flurries of punches, they were sort of combinations but I don't think these flurries are what we think of today as combination punches which I think boxers learn during practice, shadow boxing and sparring, they just kept on hitting. The fighter of this period I have seen most footage of (mainly because I have watch the different films hundreds of times is of course Les Darcy and quite often he would throw lots of punches in bunches, especially when he was on the inside, I have seen him throw like 15 punches in one flurry, most were uppercuts and body shots, often 4 or 5 uppercuts in succession followed by three or four savage hooks to the body and then maybe switching to two or three left hooks to the jaw....... but back to the styles, as I said before, just go back and watch as many fights from this era as you can and you will see all sorts of styles and approaches, I would say there was far more variety of styles then as compared to today. This may just be the natural progression of things as later trainers would incorporate a bit of Gans, a bit of Darcy, a bit of Gibbons a bit of Klaus a bit of Jack Johnson and so forth. A perfect analogy would be to think of blues guitar styles in the 20's 30's and 40's, there were dozens and dozens of vastly differing styles, the Muddy Waters and Howlin Wolf and Elmore James come along and suddenly from then on the blues is melted down into just a few different styles and now today there seems to be only one way of doing the blues... ie Texas Blues/rock........ think Stevie Ray and The Fabulous Thunderbirds.