Who is the greatest 'Ring General' of all time?

[MRBOOMER]

Mayweather
Whitaker
Prime Ali
Prime Leonard
Duran
Chino-makes you fight except Alexander idk what happened lol.
Tyson
Foreman

[billeau2]

Off topic but:

The Mongols actually had very good tacticians and generals. Subutai in particular might be the greatest general in history.

Also, they did not use compound bows which are a modern invention.

[QUOTE=billeau2;15861242]They used a smaller bow which was made with more than one bow piece....My bad i meant composite bow! Here is a description:

Composite bow
Ancient and modern Mongol bows are part of the Asian composite bow tradition. The core is bamboo, with horn on the belly (facing towards the archer) and sinew on the back, bound together with animal glue.[4] As animal glue is dissolved by water, composite bows may be ruined by rain or excess humidity; a wrapper of (waterproof) birch bark may give limited protection from moisture and from mechanical damage. The bow is usually stored in a leather case for protection when not in use.

Some of the features of this bow are that it was smaller, more adaptable, could have a physical joint (one good piece of wood not necessarily needed) and the bow could be held in a variety of riding positions where as larger bows like the japanese Yumi were impractical in comparison.

The Mongols needed very little tactics. As a matter of fact when they couldn't swarm, leave horses behind for a rest, and go on, they could be beat. it happened to them twice via the Samurai. They could not adapt when a storm approached and they could not swarm. There were no secondary tactics, no naval tricks to pull.

What the mongols did have was tactics that were unmatched vis a vis the ability to swarm the enemy and the practice of using these tactics and integrating these tactics into their lives so they were second nature...Nobody ever really gave them any chance to battle outside their own ranks! They were defeated by being gradually acculterated into the cultures they conquered most notably the chinese, who actually had a mongol empror.

I wouldn't dispute that they may have had a great general....But The Kahns own sons couldn't maintain the ways that made them so powerful which was the ability to have the speed (horses) skills to ride, and weapons to outflank and overrun anyone in their way.

[ShoulderRoll]

A lot depends on which Mongol era you want to focus on, but during Ghenghis Khan's rule they were vastly outnumbered in Russia (in the winter!) and in Beijing yet still came out victorious. And they never lost against anyone they came across be it European knights or ****** warriors...that kind of record in warfare can't be achieved without proper strategy and tactics.

Japan came after Ghenghis and involved naval invasions which were not a Mongol specialty. Even then I think the Japanese were very lucky that the two storms wrecked most of the Mongol ships otherwise they very likely would have tasted defeat eventually just like everyone else did.

[billeau2]

A lot depends on which Mongol era you want to focus on, but during Ghenghis Khan's rule they were vastly outnumbered in Russia (in the winter!) and in Beijing yet still came out victorious. And they never lost against anyone they came across be it European knights or ****** warriors...that kind of record in warfare can't be achieved without proper strategy and tactics.

Japan came after Ghenghis and involved naval invasions which were not a Mongol specialty. Even then I think the Japanese were very lucky that the two storms wrecked most of the Mongol ships otherwise they very likely would have tasted defeat eventually just like everyone else did.

The japanese WERE INDEED lucky! But they were also flexible. japanese fighting units were in units of 8 people at most, unlike for example Roman/ Greek where the smallest units were about ten. many battles for the Japanese had to be won on alliances, strategy, flexability, etc. They did not have such tight battle lines...a disadvantage for the Mongols, but could match the Mongol archers at close quarters...sword versus bow...of course you had great Jpanese bowmen but they were not able to use the Yumi bow at close quarters.

Both groups had good mobility, The Mongols probably better than the japanese...smaller faster horses, more skilled horsemen....Home field advantage to the Japanese! lots of mountains to fire down upon the hordes and as recently as world war 2 the army and marines saw how hard it was to get to shore against the Japanese.

its not that I think the Mongols were not the most capable fighting force perhaps that the world had ever seen...its just that Mongol fighting ideology was ingrained and seldom based on any strategy machinations. They used the same tactics which were based on growing up virtually connected to a horse. The mongols were so connected to their horses that, where as a japanese general might have to figure out how to get food to the lines of foot soldgers, the Mongols would simply take a filet of meat and put it under the saddle, the friction of riding would cook the meat. And where as many generals were concerned with fresh horses? the mongols simply swarmed, left the horses at the battle scene to rest for the next swarm and took off on the horses left for them by the previous swarm. The enemy could never catch a second wind.

The monglos tactics were so ingrained, their advantages so superior that they never had to consider different scenerios, or alternatives. My point is that they didn't need clever generals, or different types of army divisions, to use against another army in a virtual chessboard, they simply did what they did with little deviation, with repetition to the extent that it was second nature.

Even with respect to shooting, the Mongol archers were not superior (though more mobile) what they achieved they achieved because they swarmed and broke through the enemy lines....no army at that time could prevent this from happening. Even when outnumbered, because they never stopped swarming, and because there was always a force behind them, even if you stopped the first line, the second line was coming, nobody could stop the Mongols. Like when the Gracies first came here, nobody understood enough about mongol warfare to stop them.

a great French cook uses technique, different ingrediants and many principles, and thus French cooking has many strategies for handling different ingrediants... meanwhile in many Italian cuisines, you get grandmas who have grown up and used the same ingrediants, the same recipes for generations and have become perfect at making the dishes they are known for. With no variation and repetition these cooks make a perfect dish every time. That to me is the Mongols.

I don't know if the Mongols would have defeated the Japanese....it would have been a tremendous battle. The Japanese were very general oriented, very tactically adaptive and the Samurai, much like Andre Ward could fight on the inside. Also Japan had a variety of terrains, a great balance between central autonomy and authority, good communication, and loose battle lines vis a vis the Mongols might not have much to crash and flank. The Mongols would have had a hell of a time gaining enough of a toehold to start their tactics.

Shoulder Roll one cannot downplay the ability of the japanese to adapt tactics to the situation any more than one can minimize Mongol tactics! The Samurai, in fact, took an undecidely non-traditional approach when meeting the hordes at sea. much like Musashi who defeated the vastly superior swordsman, prince Koto, by baiting him to fight out in the tide (where Koto's mobility would be nil) and braining him with an oar, the mongols never were given a chance to show their advantage between the shore and the japanese offensive. But the Mongols could easily have also went into gear upon reaching the shore...


I often wonder.....unlike the Chinese which were not a militeristic society, the Japanese were....What a superb blend of martial acumen would have been gained with Mongol and japanese syncratascism! We would have gotten some great martial arts recorded for the sake of posterity because the japanese unlike the traditionally oral mongolian society, wrote things down. The mongols were known to have some incredible wrestling systems, not the show wrestling done now over there. mongol bladework would probably be kick azz also...alas we will never know.