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Inch For Inch GOAT

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  • Inch For Inch GOAT

    It is always P4P that getes the headline. But what about the inch for inch category?

    A 5'11" welterweight rightfully owns the P4P title, but he would not be a winner in the all time inch for inch category.

    Inch for inch there was no better than Sam Langford, and you might even throw Barbados Joe Walcott into that picture.

    The Boston Tar Baby was 5'7" and fought everyone from 6'3" Harry Wills to Jack Johnnycakes, the Galveston Giant. He did not just fight them, mind you. He managed to KO Wills twice.

    Once Johnson escaped that black murderer's row of those condemned to fight among themselves over and over, he never looked back for a championship challenger other than Jim Johnson, the weakest of that bunch and who Langford beat thirteen or fourteen times. Jack understood he had to fight a white man every time out. That is where the money was, and Jack loved money. A close decision win or loss to Langford was about as unappealing as raw turkey. Why risk the title against a guy who could really fight and would not draw much of a crowd?

    Why not Langford rather than Jim Johnson, you may ask yourself? Sam had already given Lil' Arthur a close fight in 1906.

    The public might tolerate one defense against another black, but let's not kid ourselves into believing they would have tolerated a second such defense...against...oh, say even Lil' Sam Langford.

    Langford, who had the demeanor of a train porter, was not a complainer or a troublemaker, so he was well liked by the white public. The same way they liked their train porters named George for handiness, since you really could not tell them apart anyway. Let's put it this way: Lanfgord was never the public's first choice for a defense--white or black--and not their third, either, yet he was in 1910 the single fighter in the world with the best chance of dethroning Johnson. Both men would have brought their A games, for they would have known it was necessary.

    Only a handful of smaller men in the histroy of the sport managed to bring something like their original power with them when they moved to higher weight divisions. One thinks of Wilde, Robinson and Sam Langford. Knocking out guys who had 40-50 pounds and 6-8 inches on him was all in a day's work for the Boston Tar Baby.

    In fact, he could have been and should have been and would have been fighting middlweights in today's game. How he might have done in the middleweight division is suggested by his lone ring encounter in 1910 with the great Stanley Ketchel. The six round exhibition affair at the National Athletic Club in Phildelphia was hotly anticipated, for both men were already considered greats and Ketchel was world's middleweight champion. Sam, who could fight as a middleweight, was currently the world's colored heavyweight champion.

    The boxing public hoped with whetted appetites that this bout was a prelude to a full championship bout for the middlweight title out in California later that year.

    Ketchel had strategic flexibility. He could attack full bore, knowing the negro was unlikely to respond in kind and risk the future bout. Or he could take it easy on the black boy, knowing the favor would be returned, as long as they gave the Athletic Club attendees enough to satisfy them. If he got the chance, he could KO Langford and get rid of someone his camp considered dangerous.

    Newspaper accounts of this fight bring to mind Mayweather/Castillo I. Sam's job was to contain the Michigan assassain without hurting him too badly, and build interest toward California in the summer.

    If Sam had known there would never be a championship fight with Stanley, he might have done more than just contain the storming Ketchel that evening. He bloodied his nose, jabbed him, clinched him on the ropes, parried and out maneuvered him and emerged unscathed. Interest for California was duly built. Stanely, of course, had a date with a bullet.

    In a just world the world probably had itself a middleweight champion who might have reigned twelve to fifteen years in Sam Langford. In truth, neither Ketchel or Papke was a reasonable match for him if he wanted to turn the pressure on. Those guys punched light compared to Johnson, Jeanette, McVea and Harry Wills.

    As Sam started to age (who wouldn't?) Harry Wills started to beat him every time they fought. But if you look at the record before Langford became half blind and shopworn, big Harry Wills got KO'd twice by the Boston Tar Baby.

    Joe Gans was a teacher of Langford's, and sometimes even worked his corner and helped train him.

    Langford is often overlooked in contemporary P4P rankings, because where to place him is obscure. In the inch for inch rankings his status is more clear where he is one of if not the greatest I4I fighters ever.

  • #2
    Originally posted by The Old LefHook View Post
    It is always P4P that getes the headline. But what about the inch for inch category?

    A 5'11" welterweight rightfully owns the P4P title, but he would not be a winner in the all time inch for inch category.

    Inch for inch there was no better than Sam Langford, and you might even throw Barbados Joe Walcott into that picture.

    The Boston Tar Baby was 5'7" and fought everyone from 6'3" Harry Wills to Jack Johnnycakes, the Galveston Giant. He did not just fight them, mind you. He managed to KO Wills twice.

    Once Johnson escaped that black murderer's row of those condemned to fight among themselves over and over, he never looked back for a championship challenger other than Jim Johnson, the weakest of that bunch and who Langford beat thirteen or fourteen times. Jack understood he had to fight a white man every time out. That is where the money was, and Jack loved money. A close decision win or loss to Langford was about as unappealing as raw turkey. Why risk the title against a guy who could really fight and would not draw much of a crowd?

    Why not Langford rather than Jim Johnson, you may ask yourself? Sam had already given Lil' Arthur a close fight in 1906.

    The public might tolerate one defense against another black, but let's not kid ourselves into believing they would have tolerated a second such defense...against...oh, say even Lil' Sam Langford.

    Langford, who had the demeanor of a train porter, was not a complainer or a troublemaker, so he was well liked by the white public. The same way they liked their train porters named George for handiness, since you really could not tell them apart anyway. Let's put it this way: Lanfgord was never the public's first choice for a defense--white or black--and not their third, either, yet he was in 1910 the single fighter in the world with the best chance of dethroning Johnson. Both men would have brought their A games, for they would have known it was necessary.

    Only a handful of smaller men in the histroy of the sport managed to bring something like their original power with them when they moved to higher weight divisions. One thinks of Wilde, Robinson and Sam Langford. Knocking out guys who had 40-50 pounds and 6-8 inches on him was all in a day's work for the Boston Tar Baby.

    In fact, he could have been and should have been and would have been fighting middlweights in today's game. How he might have done in the middleweight division is suggested by his lone ring encounter in 1910 with the great Stanley Ketchel. The six round exhibition affair at the National Athletic Club in Phildelphia was hotly anticipated, for both men were already considered greats and Ketchel was world's middleweight champion. Sam, who could fight as a middleweight, was currently the world's colored heavyweight champion.

    The boxing public hoped with whetted appetites that this bout was a prelude to a full championship bout for the middlweight title out in California later that year.

    Ketchel had strategic flexibility. He could attack full bore, knowing the negro was unlikely to respond in kind and risk the future bout. Or he could take it easy on the black boy, knowing the favor would be returned, as long as they gave the Athletic Club attendees enough to satisfy them. If he got the chance, he could KO Langford and get rid of someone his camp considered dangerous.

    Newspaper accounts of this fight bring to mind Mayweather/Castillo I. Sam's job was to contain the Michigan assassain without hurting him too badly, and build interest toward California in the summer.

    If Sam had known there would never be a championship fight with Stanley, he might have done more than just contain the storming Ketchel that evening. He bloodied his nose, jabbed him, clinched him on the ropes, parried and out maneuvered him and emerged unscathed. Interest for California was duly built. Stanely, of course, had a date with a bullet.

    In a just world the world probably had itself a middleweight champion who might have reigned twelve to fifteen years in Sam Langford. In truth, neither Ketchel or Papke was a reasonable match for him if he wanted to turn the pressure on. Those guys punched light compared to Johnson, Jeanette, McVea and Harry Wills.

    As Sam started to age (who wouldn't?) Harry Wills started to beat him every time they fought. But if you look at the record before Langford became half blind and shopworn, big Harry Wills got KO'd twice by the Boston Tar Baby.

    Joe Gans was a teacher of Langford's, and sometimes even worked his corner and helped train him.

    Langford is often overlooked in contemporary P4P rankings, because where to place him is obscure. In the inch for inch rankings his status is more clear where he is one of if not the greatest I4I fighters ever.
    Well to my recollection Johnson never and couldn't have escaped the "black murders row" as that term was reserved for fighters in the 40/50s those like charley burley, elmer Ray etc. but there were obviously feared black fighters in his time, j recently have read both jack johnsons and Sam langfords book... No doubt langford is one of the best ever p4p. His greatest achievement which goes unnoticed by so many in my opinion is beating a joe gans aged just 17!

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    • #3
      Langford is my pick for GOAT. Nice breakdown of his greatness.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by ironalex View Post
        Well to my recollection Johnson never and couldn't have escaped the "black murders row" as that term was reserved for fighters in the 40/50s those like charley burley, elmer Ray etc. but there were obviously feared black fighters in his time, j recently have read both jack johnsons and Sam langfords book... No doubt langford is one of the best ever p4p. His greatest achievement which goes unnoticed by so many in my opinion is beating a joe gans aged just 17!
        There was a murderer's row of heavyweights in the early years of the 20th century. All the black heavyweights were in it. Then Johnson became champion.

        The name may not have neen coined until later, but the principle is the same.

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        • #5
          Its the 'Satchel Page' syndrome....page was getting major league hitters out allegedly in his 40's and 50's....however many thought he lied about his age and was even older! His one health tip? "avoid fried foods." If page was succesful at that age one can only imagine how good he was! Langsford had the same situation....The man who said "I carry my own referee every fight" whereupon he pointed to his right fist. fantastic fighter. On the proverbial short list for sure.

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          • #6
            Hard to argue against Langford.

            Dwight (Braxton) Muhammad Qawi deserves mention for a listing of runner ups.

            The original Joe Walcott has been mentioned already.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by The Old LefHook View Post
              There was a murderer's row of heavyweights in the early years of the 20th century. All the black heavyweights were in it. Then Johnson became champion.

              The name may not have neen coined until later, but the principle is the same.
              Yeah but what I was saying is the name was created for the fighters in the 40s/50s... Same principle though. They had titles reserved for black only etc. Dwight Muhammad qawi was a good mention, he had one of the best jabs of all time.

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              • #8
                I know dempsey had tremendous respect for Sam Langford does anyone know why he did was it through reputation or would have he seen Sam fight?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by rightsideup View Post
                  I know dempsey had tremendous respect for Sam Langford does anyone know why he did was it through reputation or would have he seen Sam fight?
                  I remember reading an article quoting Dempsey saying he was afraid of Langford and that he was the best fighter he had ever seen

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                  • #10
                    Dempsey's statement about Langford we can safely ignore. It is the kind of statement made simply to honor an old great who never got a fair chance. By the time they could have fought, Dempsey would have killed him. His homage was the kind of encomium we often hear one great bestowing upon another in their later years. Do not take it any more seriously than what a trainer says about his fighter.

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