Was there any other trainer other than Dundee that didn't believe in weight training?

[Mintcar923]

Just curious..

[rightsideup]

Good question dundee picked up his knowledge from the great new York trainers in the late 40s to early 50s guys like Charlie Goldman marciano s trainer,ray arcel,whity bimstead,freddie brown,chicky Ferrara! All these guys were older than him but I would assume did not advocate weight training

[juggernaut666]

Just curious..

They didn't have the knowledge they do today..overwhelming evidence suggests weight training does improve performance in any sport..almost any modern trainer includes weight training to some degree and iof they don't they are doing aninjustice to their fighter.Im assuming all trainers of the past didn't like weight training as they associated it with being slow,however lean muscle is faster than no muscle or fat,due to the muscle fibers becoming more explosive.So yea I would say every trainer.

[rightsideup]

In the early eighties I bought a book which I have since lost that was a training guide for amateur boxing. It included diet,weight training,cardio,and even diagrams of punching techniques on the various bags. It also offered some explanation of how the certain weight exercises and stretches actually improved your flexability and punching. I also remember the author writing that a pro boxer used this exact circuit lifting and not only was he one of the strongest men in America he also was a world champ

[juggernaut666]

In the early eighties I bought a book which I have since lost that was a training guide for amateur boxing. It included diet,weight training,cardio,and even diagrams of punching techniques on the various bags. It also offered some explanation of how the certain weight exercises and stretches actually improved your flexability and punching. I also remember the author writing that a pro boxer used this exact circuit lifting and not only was he one of the strongest men in America he also was a world champ

Only someone whos never lifted weights will really tell you different....Weight training helps the muscle promote more fast and slow twitch fibers...if the common thinking was true do you really think 250 plus football players would be running around the field either catching a ball or sacking the quarterback?No way...Brock Lesnar was 300 pounds ,he ran 4.4 in the 40 yard dash.This is one example of how modern day training has changed with weights in boxing running almost with all top fighters,theres a reason for it and its not about looking good.

[rightsideup]

One can use holyfield in boxing and jordon in basketball as examples.Holyfield grew out of the light heavy division and there really was no money in the cruisers so he employed weight training to content with the bigger boys without losing much of his speed. Jordon after being bounced out of the playoffs employed a strength Coach and the next year took the bulls to the title

[juggernaut666]

One can use holyfield in boxing and jordon in basketball as examples.Holyfield grew out of the light heavy division and there really was no money in the cruisers so he employed weight training to content with the bigger boys without losing much of his speed. Jordon after being bounced out of the playoffs employed a strength Coach and the next year took the bulls to the title

Im not sure what baseball team it was ,maybe Marlins or Cardinals that incorperated ,a weight training /cross fit /MMA type of training program for a year and ended up winning the world series so yea weights help in any aspect ,only a fool would say weights dont improve performance and think it detracts from performance , and they got the idea from whatever Football team won the Super bowl the previous year,im suee weights are the norm in just about every sport now.This is an interesting topic since not long ago another thread was "does weights help in boxing" and the few people there telling me theres no evidence on weight training and sports which to me is laughable as a weight trained guy since 87 and all the studies done that conradicts what every old trainer has said .

[ironalex]

In reply to the original post - a lot of the old school trainers didn't believe in it, Eddie Futch, Ray Arcel etc and in reply to juggernaught - weights don't make you better it's how you use them that do, and many of the older fighters did things that were substituted for weight (chopping a tree for example). Also a lot of fighters make the mistake of spending more time with weights rather than with boxing. For every fighter who has lifted weights there are fighters that haven't that our strong as an ox, Tyson and Frazier never lifted weights... Yet who would you say is stronger than them today? and which fighter have you ever seen more explosive than Tyson? Oh wait, let me guess... Wlad klitchko? Lol

[Ray Corso]

Many trainers and fighters used weights as far back as Jack Johnson.
However it was not a main session especially once you were in top condition.
I used weights in my gym and used them a variety of ways for different reasons.
A base incline/decline bench was bolted to the weight room floor and I had Olympic 45lb plates and up to 2,000lbs in my gym.
I prefer free moving exercises and I don't employ them with kids under 15yrs and even then high rep & light weight.
I find using your body weight with multiple movements is the first strengthening program and as that develops I would incorperate weights.
If a young man needed to develop his body strength then we would draw up a program for that purpose. Not everyone needs weights it was an option and utilized for some.

I had a former Mr. World who owned one the first Gold's Gym's help me install equipment and anything I didn't have he made avalible at his gym for any of the gym members.
Ray.

[billeau2]

They didn't have the knowledge they do today..overwhelming evidence suggests weight training does improve performance in any sport..almost any modern trainer includes weight training to some degree and iof they don't they are doing aninjustice to their fighter.Im assuming all trainers of the past didn't like weight training as they associated it with being slow,however lean muscle is faster than no muscle or fat,due to the muscle fibers becoming more explosive.So yea I would say every trainer.

knowledge involving human fitness has improved primarily in understanding why certain things are important from a scientific understanding....a fighter from the twenties certainly did not know that roadwork, crunches, other exerscizes were good because they built the core muscles up.. Yet the fighters knew certain fitness routines gave them the endurance and strength needed in the ring. These fighters may not have had certain principles of efficiency understood in a manner where they could be used to cut time down, and generalize routines, but they knew what to do to get in optimum condition for the task at hand.

The problem is that weight training theory has also been really bad at times because of very silly theories that were in play. Many of these theories were used as recently as 25 years ago.... Guys were resting alot in between sets, not exhausting the muscle groups and getting big arms and chests, with bad core develpment and stick legs. I used to bounce with guys that roided and looked like this...

A lot of current knowledge is validating information that was practiced, just not described...at least not in Western fitness.

Weight training is a tool, it is a means to an end....Generally speaking one does not magically bulk up like Arnold lifting weights as a means to an end. And generally speaking if one has other means of strengthening the body in a manner where the muscles that do work are exhausted and forced to get stronger, one may not even need weights. If I want to exhaust my quads, back and abdominals by lifting tractor tires and throwing them, or by grappling for 3 minute rounds none stop, its just as good a way as lifting weights because the manner in which those muscles are exhausted is not as important as making sure the muscles are developed.

Explosive fast twitch training is another very important area that can be done with weights, pylometrics, and even isometrics. Guys in the old days often did this with sprints, or with cable weight training.

Jughead people knew about weights back then and guys were built very well....there was not a lack of muscular development in fighters. Weight training is a way of meeting certain fitness objectives. nautilus training when done properly (very seldom done properly) can actually exhaust every major muscle group in the body using negatives and maximum intensity, ie. working the muscle group to the point of faulure, in about 15 minutes max. There is a corelation between football players starting to get really big and fast, and when Nautilus theories and equipment started to be used regularly in college football programs.

What really produces gains has not changed: It is working to a point where one can work so intensely that muscle failure occurs, and in so doing using less time, less reps, more strength, more explosiveness, and better form. There is no doubt this is understood now physiologically and that fighters of old and new would benefit from this understanding.