Willie Pep and Henry Armstrong

[billeau2]

Hi one and all!

This is my first ever thread so excuse me for any beginner errors. I apologise in advance and hopefully I'll get the hang of it.

I recently went through my top 5 'pound for pound' of all times list with some friends. I had Ray Robinson at the top of the pile with Harry Greb relatively close in second place. Muhammad Ali went in at 5th place which left me struggling to place Willie Pep and Henry Armstrong. I eventually went with Henry as third greatest of all time leaving Willie in 4th.

My question is who do you think was the 1) better boxer/fighter 2) who had the better career/resumé and 3) who would win in a fight between the two at 126?! (prime vs prime)

Glad to have a poster come in here without backage....great first topic. Yur problem is going to be imo that the comparison is apples to oranges. These guys went about the craft in such diametrically different ways....

With Homicide Hank we have the epiteme of the swarmer... The archetype for the pressure guy. A man who went for the jugular for every second of every round and rarely let up. When one watches a fighter like Holyfield put together combos and overwhelm his opponent by continuing on after, when we see a guy like the road warrior take care of Roy Jones by pressing foward and walking through Jones...we are looking at the spirit of Armstrong. La Motta beat the Sugar man this way. It is an equalizer, it is winning ugly only to those who do not appreciate that the swarmer is every bit as crafty and smart as the boxer, the boxer puncher, and the defensive wizards....speaking of which

Pep was to many the epiteme of the defensive wizard. Pep could set up so many punches because of his skill in using angles and the ring to avoid getting hit. If guys like Hank had energy to spare, guys like Pep were frugal and never wasted effort.

Two master fighters who approached boxing with an entirely different method. Both guys were great hard to say who is greater imo.

[aboutfkntime]

Of course,,, ranking guys in terms of ATG is very hard and everyone discussed is an amazing fighter

You would have to be an expert on their opponents, compared to how their peers performed, at that point in time...... across the boxing landscape.

There are very few people on the planet that can do it without a massive amount of research..... and it would still only be subjective.

Pretty fun to debate though.

[billeau2]

For the record: I have a hard time imagining Pep keeping Armstrong off of him. But one never knows.

[ShoulderRoll]

No one ever kept prime Armstrong off them. It would be fun to watch Pep try with his silky footwork but I think he loses on points due to sheer activity.

[RED REP]

1) Henry Armstrong

2) Henry Armstrong

3) At 126, Willie Pep

Yeah i think i agree you know, Henry wasn't ever at his best at featherweight and certainly wasn't there for long. Just to think he even fought to a draw against a middleweight in a title fight, although the title was not major.

[RED REP]

Glad to have a poster come in here without backage....great first topic. Yur problem is going to be imo that the comparison is apples to oranges. These guys went about the craft in such diametrically different ways....

With Homicide Hank we have the epiteme of the swarmer... The archetype for the pressure guy. A man who went for the jugular for every second of every round and rarely let up. When one watches a fighter like Holyfield put together combos and overwhelm his opponent by continuing on after, when we see a guy like the road warrior take care of Roy Jones by pressing foward and walking through Jones...we are looking at the spirit of Armstrong. La Motta beat the Sugar man this way. It is an equalizer, it is winning ugly only to those who do not appreciate that the swarmer is every bit as crafty and smart as the boxer, the boxer puncher, and the defensive wizards....speaking of which

Pep was to many the epiteme of the defensive wizard. Pep could set up so many punches because of his skill in using angles and the ring to avoid getting hit. If guys like Hank had energy to spare, guys like Pep were frugal and never wasted effort.

Two master fighters who approached boxing with an entirely different method. Both guys were great hard to say who is greater imo.

Indeed. Great reply, thanks mate.

Wonderful to think of isn't it, i think its the dream match up, Ray Robinson Vs. Harry Greb is also the same though! At 126 i actually think i'd go with Pep but you're right how can anyone truly have a strong opinion on this in 2015, such a shame we don't have the footage that the people in 100 years from now will have of greats such as Lewis, Jones Jr and Mayweather etc. But thats the magic of it, that's the magic of this part of the forums!

[billeau2]

Indeed. Great reply, thanks mate.

Wonderful to think of isn't it, i think its the dream match up, Ray Robinson Vs. Harry Greb is also the same though! At 126 i actually think i'd go with Pep but you're right how can anyone truly have a strong opinion on this in 2015, such a shame we don't have the footage that the people in 100 years from now will have of greats such as Lewis, Jones Jr and Mayweather etc. But thats the magic of it, that's the magic of this part of the forums!

haha yeah we might have super computers that absolutely predict things....able to consider every possible variable, down to what a fighter had for breakfast that morning! I can imagine my kids kids plugging in "Louis versus Lewis who wins?"

Seriously though the reason why anecdotal proof is relevant is that it is often the only proof we have regarding great fighters....because some of the great trainers were able to live a long life we can consider how these men compared fighters....for example, one may not initially see much when observing footage of Dempsey, but we are told somewhat unequocally that many experts considered him the premiere heavyweight of all time. Then we can start to look at methods and in fact, see if some of these observations can be confirmed.

it turns out that Dempsey was extremly literate. He wrote perhaps one of the most widely interpreted treatises on boxing ever written. This work explains what he did and the theories he developed.

[Humean]

I'd personally go with Armstrong ahead of Pep but there really isn't much between them, Armstrong probably the best fighter of the 30s and Pep probably in the top 5 of the 40s.


Willie Pep
Overall Record--------------------229-11-1
Non-World Level-------------------199-5-1
Borderline World Level----------------5-0-0
World Level-------------------------25-6-0

Opponents

Borderline
Pedro Hernandez, Bobby Ivy, Harold Dade, Corky Gonzales

World Level
Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Sammy Angott, Sal Bartolo, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce, Manuel Ortiz, Lulu Costantino, Charley Cabey Lewis, Phil Terranova, Jackie Graves, Humberto Sierra, Jock Leslie, Miguel Acevedo, Paddy DeMarco, Sandy Saddler, Eddie Compo, Charley Riley, Ray Famechon, Eddie Chavez, Tommy Collins, Hogan Kid Bassey

Henry Armstrong
Overall Record-----------------------150-21-10
Non-World Level----------------------108-9-8
Borderline World Level------------------12-0-0
World Level----------------------------30-12-2

Opponents

Borderline
Baby Manuel, Frankie Klick, Alf Blatch, Benny Bass, Enrico Venturi, Everett Rightmire, Ralph Zanelli, Leo Rodak, Maxie Shapiro

World Level
Baby Arizmendi, Rodolfo Casanova, Midget Wolgast, Juan Zurita, Mike Belloise, Tony Chavez, Aldo Spoldi, Petey Sarron, Billy Beauhuld, Chalky Wright, Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, Ceferino Garcia, Davey Day, Ernie Roderick, Pedro Montanez, Paul Junior, Lew Jenkins, Fritzie Zivic, Willie Joyce, Tippy Larkin, Beau Jack, Sammy Angott, Sugar Ray Robinson, John Thomas, Slugger White

[billeau2]

I'd personally go with Armstrong ahead of Pep but there really isn't much between them, Armstrong probably the best fighter of the 30s and Pep probably in the top 5 of the 40s.


Willie Pep
Overall Record--------------------229-11-1
Non-World Level-------------------199-5-1
Borderline World Level----------------5-0-0
World Level-------------------------25-6-0

Opponents

Borderline
Pedro Hernandez, Bobby Ivy, Harold Dade, Corky Gonzales

World Level
Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Sammy Angott, Sal Bartolo, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce, Manuel Ortiz, Lulu Costantino, Charley Cabey Lewis, Phil Terranova, Jackie Graves, Humberto Sierra, Jock Leslie, Miguel Acevedo, Paddy DeMarco, Sandy Saddler, Eddie Compo, Charley Riley, Ray Famechon, Eddie Chavez, Tommy Collins, Hogan Kid Bassey

Henry Armstrong
Overall Record-----------------------150-21-10
Non-World Level----------------------108-9-8
Borderline World Level------------------12-0-0
World Level----------------------------30-12-2

Opponents

Borderline
Baby Manuel, Frankie Klick, Alf Blatch, Benny Bass, Enrico Venturi, Everett Rightmire, Ralph Zanelli, Leo Rodak, Maxie Shapiro

World Level
Baby Arizmendi, Rodolfo Casanova, Midget Wolgast, Juan Zurita, Mike Belloise, Tony Chavez, Aldo Spoldi, Petey Sarron, Billy Beauhuld, Chalky Wright, Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, Ceferino Garcia, Davey Day, Ernie Roderick, Pedro Montanez, Paul Junior, Lew Jenkins, Fritzie Zivic, Willie Joyce, Tippy Larkin, Beau Jack, Sammy Angott, Sugar Ray Robinson, John Thomas, Slugger White

There seems to be parity in their world level stats.

[RED REP]

I'd personally go with Armstrong ahead of Pep but there really isn't much between them, Armstrong probably the best fighter of the 30s and Pep probably in the top 5 of the 40s.


Willie Pep
Overall Record--------------------229-11-1
Non-World Level-------------------199-5-1
Borderline World Level----------------5-0-0
World Level-------------------------25-6-0

Opponents

Borderline
Pedro Hernandez, Bobby Ivy, Harold Dade, Corky Gonzales

World Level
Chalky Wright, Allie Stolz, Sammy Angott, Sal Bartolo, Jackie Wilson, Willie Joyce, Manuel Ortiz, Lulu Costantino, Charley Cabey Lewis, Phil Terranova, Jackie Graves, Humberto Sierra, Jock Leslie, Miguel Acevedo, Paddy DeMarco, Sandy Saddler, Eddie Compo, Charley Riley, Ray Famechon, Eddie Chavez, Tommy Collins, Hogan Kid Bassey

Henry Armstrong
Overall Record-----------------------150-21-10
Non-World Level----------------------108-9-8
Borderline World Level------------------12-0-0
World Level----------------------------30-12-2

Opponents

Borderline
Baby Manuel, Frankie Klick, Alf Blatch, Benny Bass, Enrico Venturi, Everett Rightmire, Ralph Zanelli, Leo Rodak, Maxie Shapiro

World Level
Baby Arizmendi, Rodolfo Casanova, Midget Wolgast, Juan Zurita, Mike Belloise, Tony Chavez, Aldo Spoldi, Petey Sarron, Billy Beauhuld, Chalky Wright, Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, Ceferino Garcia, Davey Day, Ernie Roderick, Pedro Montanez, Paul Junior, Lew Jenkins, Fritzie Zivic, Willie Joyce, Tippy Larkin, Beau Jack, Sammy Angott, Sugar Ray Robinson, John Thomas, Slugger White

That is the single best post on any thread that I've seen since signing up to this website.
I knew it would happen in the history section.

Bloody brilliant fella! Kudos!