Was John L. Sullivan good or just a joke?

[Langford]

A testament to his greatness was that almost every saloon and bar in the USA in his time proudly had a picture of him on their wall. One of the first great celebrities in the history of sports.

John L backed his claims that he could "lick any SOB in the house" and really did it.

[Rspen46]

Atg

He has to be considered an all time great, but if you grabbed him out of time in his prime, and threw him in the ring against anyone more current, he loses against most, but based on old writings about him and people that saw him 1st hand and described it, he was big and tough for his time period, most likely he was around 5-10 to 6-0 feet tall and anywhere from 180-210, my guess is, take the average mans size of the day and give John L. a little more height and weight and you have it pretty close.

He knocked out most of his competition, so he had to have good solid power and was probably mentally as tough as anyone that's every fought in the ring.

But his style from back then would not help him win today, but take him out of the past and give him the new training methods, diet and exercise and give him a little time to catch up on learning how to Box all over again and he would be tough as anyone to beat, but no way he steps out of the past and wins, but he would be tough and tenacious to the end against anyone.

[McGoorty]

I agree completely. John L. Sullivan was the first gloved fighter. He didn't have the desire to fight bare knuckled and was the first to truly see how wraps and gloves allowed someone to go for a KO without breaking his hand. They still had ridiculously light gloves (as best as I can tell they were 3-5 ounces - even for heavyweights).

London Prize Ring Rules was not boxing. It was more MMA without striking below the waist and without a ground game. Everything else (plus more) that's allowed in MMA was legal.

In addition to being the first boxer of any note he quickly had no competition. ANY boxer today would easily beat the field in the 1880s. Of course if you took off the modern day boxer's gloves and made him fight by LPR Rules he would probably break his hand(s) in the first few rounds and quit soon after.

It's hard enough to judge pre-1920 fighters with the present. I think we can't really compare the present to 19th C fighters. For all practical purposes we have to consider the years from 1882 (? first gloved fights) to 1900 to be a transition era.

I think Larry Foley was advocating gloved fights before Sullivan was and i think Larry had a gloved fight before John did as well, Foley was instrumental in insisting that boxing needed gloves to evolve and improve, of course Larry had many bare knuckle fights. But to the point of the thread, John L Sullivan was no joke.

[McGoorty]

The top guy in his day, but the rules and sport have evolved so much, it's alomost an entirely different sport which makes it nearly impossible to judge him vs guys like Marciano, Holmes, wlad

But why do we have to compare him to Marciano ? he was a bare knuckle London Prize Ring fighter, maybe the best but I would say Dempsey the nonpareil or Cribb or Mendoza were better or at least in Mendoza's case more important as Daniel revolutionised the bare knuckle game. While I am at it... I have no qualms about saying this... If I had a choice as to the very last boxer bare knuckle or gloves I would ever want coming after my azz it is James Figg, he scares me to hell, Tyson is a softy compared to Figg and so is Sullivan, but Figg was a barbarian compared to any champion to come after him, he preferred cudgels and swords, just imagine how much guts you needed to take him on in a bout.

[ironalex]

Top 5 ATG, finest British fighter to ever lace them up. So good he changed the nature of the sport.

He's American

[billeau2]

But why do we have to compare him to Marciano ? he was a bare knuckle London Prize Ring fighter, maybe the best but I would say Dempsey the nonpareil or Cribb or Mendoza were better or at least in Mendoza's case more important as Daniel revolutionised the bare knuckle game. While I am at it... I have no qualms about saying this... If I had a choice as to the very last boxer bare knuckle or gloves I would ever want coming after my azz it is James Figg, he scares me to hell, Tyson is a softy compared to Figg and so is Sullivan, but Figg was a barbarian compared to any champion to come after him, he preferred cudgels and swords, just imagine how much guts you needed to take him on in a bout.

Fig was indeed a combat expert. He taught the quarterstaff...to give some perspective this was not a bamboo ratton stick, but a solid piece of lumber anywhere from around a foot to 3 (depending on the size of the person) and one got lumpy in the training. Also, at that time was various cutlery including the bastard sword... a real piece of killing ugliness, a sword with a handle the size of the blade.

Figg was a gifted teacher and much like many martial arts today, body movements had to account for consistancy so that at any given time the hand, foot, the ground, or any weapon available could be utilized.

How good was sullivan? well one had to fight in a manner where many more variables were part of the fray. The hand could not be broken, combat took place in the grapple, and hitting a man in the mouth was such that you could open your hand up and get a life threatening infection faster than the guy missing the teeth would complain. You had to protect the kidneys and the plexis...etc. It was more a matter of attrition than anything else for these reasons.

So it was quite different.

[soul_survivor]

what is your opinion of The Great John L. Sullivan

Look Sullivan was good, even great for his time. No footage so I can't say much for his skill but the fact that he spent much of his career fighting mud or fields or boats doesn't bode well. He was a street slugger, the best of his time but street slugger...with gloves later in his career.

By mid to late 20th century standards and modern day standards, with all the skills and advantages on offer now, he'd get beaten down like a bum. That might sound harsh but he was very much a fighter of his time.