The journeyman

[stephenmc]

Ever since the introduction of queensberry journeymen have been around,in fact they were more than likely around before then (if anyone has info on that?). They are the back bone of boxing,and to put it simply their would be no boxing had their not been human "punchbags" their for boxers to beat up on while making a name for themselves. Every great champion in boxing history has fought a journeyman, every up and comer,every contender and anybody whose anybody in the ring has come up against these men. But when did the phrase "journeyman" come into existents? going back to the 1920s, could really classify those men as journeymen, i mean they used to fight nearly once a week sometimes more and nearly every boxer back then had over a hundred fights, boxing would of been attended each week as in if people were going to the pictures. Boxers or so called journeymen wold drag their battered and bruised bodys to grubby,old,smokey crime ridden gyms and halls just to make a measly few pounds or so to eat. Nowadays the foundations mostly stay the same for the journeyman,although they are paid alot more now,it comes at a cost, they are the men who put their dinner down at 8 and be in the ring ready to fight at 9. They are the men who save boxing cards throughout the world everyweek, they get beat up,and slandered and rendered useless by anyone watching their fights, but they are loved (somtimes) by promoters whos cards they save and provide a moving target to a younger boxer who they hope they can make a few dollers off. And dare a journeyman win, in many cases if a journeyman in facts manages to beat an up and comer boxer they will find it very very hard to get a fight again,as promoters will shy away in the off chance their up and coming star gets beat. So this is just a thread to recognize the work these men put in,the beatings they have taken,and the many boxing cards they have saved.....in your opinion when did the phrase "journeyman" come to be recognized??
would the sport be better off without fighters who have more losses than wins???
i would like to hear your views on the journeymen who made/make boxing?

[billeau2]

Ever since the introduction of queensberry journeymen have been around,in fact they were more than likely around before then (if anyone has info on that?). They are the back bone of boxing,and to put it simply their would be no boxing had their not been human "punchbags" their for boxers to beat up on while making a name for themselves. Every great champion in boxing history has fought a journeyman, every up and comer,every contender and anybody whose anybody in the ring has come up against these men. But when did the phrase "journeyman" come into existents? going back to the 1920s, could really classify those men as journeymen, i mean they used to fight nearly once a week sometimes more and nearly every boxer back then had over a hundred fights, boxing would of been attended each week as in if people were going to the pictures. Boxers or so called journeymen wold drag their battered and bruised bodys to grubby,old,smokey crime ridden gyms and halls just to make a measly few pounds or so to eat. Nowadays the foundations mostly stay the same for the journeyman,although they are paid alot more now,it comes at a cost, they are the men who put their dinner down at 8 and be in the ring ready to fight at 9. They are the men who save boxing cards throughout the world everyweek, they get beat up,and slandered and rendered useless by anyone watching their fights, but they are loved (somtimes) by promoters whos cards they save and provide a moving target to a younger boxer who they hope they can make a few dollers off. And dare a journeyman win, in many cases if a journeyman in facts manages to beat an up and comer boxer they will find it very very hard to get a fight again,as promoters will shy away in the off chance their up and coming star gets beat. So this is just a thread to recognize the work these men put in,the beatings they have taken,and the many boxing cards they have saved.....in your opinion when did the phrase "journeyman" come to be recognized??
would the sport be better off without fighters who have more losses than wins???
i would like to hear your views on the journeymen who made/make boxing?

Culturally and historically in boxing things are different and they are the same. Today the major flaws we see with fighters coming up are related to inherent weaknesses and technical deficencies. In the old days, it was more about character and resilance because, there was a certain amount of techical knowledge a boxer was expected to have....how can one be certain that this distinction is so?

boxing theory originally came from fencing theory. In the old days swordsman would ply their trade with private lessons in duelling, at state fairs, etc. Thing is....you don't just put a stick or a three foot plus razor blade in a man's hand. Naturally one is expected to learn how to stand, guard the body, attack, parry and defend. So it was when James Figg developed the first boxing pedigogy. It came to pass that boxing developed and flourished as a way to use the hands as weapons so disputes could be settled and both parties could leave on the right side of the ground so to speak. The point is the training was designed to be organized and efficient.

In medieval times the bastard sword was an ugly thing with a handle as long as the blade, made of inferior materials and owned by thieves, murderers and other scoudrals. Meanwhile the organized efficient fencer carried a long elegant sword, and was usually trained in either Italian or German techniques....Truth be told the ugly bastard sword plunderer often killed the skilled fencer in battle...But the ethic of the times was to demonstrate combat that was purposeful, elegant and effective.

Journeymen have always been instrumental. in this process. Whether as teachers, opponents designed to test a prospect etc. As a step up, a test, or even to show another that he was not worthy. Journeymen were part of the orderly system built on a hierarchy of skills and rewards. They are instrumental to the system of boxing because without them no fighter could get feedback about how to proceed.

I mention this to you because journeymen are also a product of boxing that eclipsed fencing....you cannot have a journeyman swordsman! there are not many men who can lose a few swordfights and be a professional opponent/ haha! But in boxing this category became a way to develop and grow. Things like the Marqui of queensbery rules, gloves were all a way of ensuring that men could fight at levels without causing permanent damage. There was even a time where "mufflers" (boxing gloves) were used in a fight with a journeyman to prepare for greater contests. So journeymen are integral to boxing!

[The Old LefHook]

A boxer hits journeyman status twice--on the way up and on the way down.

You are right about them being the backbone of boxing. They are the foundation of that sub culture. When the sub culture was more dense in the USA there were more gyms full of boxers than there are now.

[stephenmc]

A boxer hits journeyman status twice--on the way up and on the way down.

You are right about them being the backbone of boxing. They are the foundation of that sub culture. When the sub culture was more dense in the USA there were more gyms full of boxers than there are now.

True, especially in post war america i think boxing and the journeyman thrived. not just in america but in fact around the world,the emergence of European boxers i think came at the end of world war 1, but can you explain a boxer hits journeyman on the way up??

[jaded]

But when did the phrase "journeyman" come into existents?

It's a term that comes from the tradesman's designation that has been used since the industrial age and is still used today.

By definition: A journeyman is an individual who has completed an apprenticeship and is fully educated in a trade or craft, but not yet a master. To become a master, a journeyman has to submit a master work piece to a guild for evaluation and be admitted to the guild as a master. Sometimes, a journeyman is required to accomplish a three-year working trip, which may be called the journeyman years.

The word journeyman comes from the French word journée, which means a day's work or a day's travel; journée in turn comes from Vulgar Latin, diurnum meaning day. The title refers to the journeyman's right to charge a fee for each day's work.

It is commonly used in the trades as a designation all the time in reference to for example...a journeyman plumber...a journeyman electrician...etc.

A journeyman boxer is a boxer who has completed an apprenticeship and is fully experienced and able at his craft but not yet a master and may or may not ever become one.

[K-DOGG]

Just wanted to say I'm enjoying reading the posts on here.....very educational historically, and it's nice to see the journeymen get the respect they deserve. If it weren't for good quality journeymen, the "masters", to use descriptive from a previous post, would never "master" their art.

Good journeymen opponents are priceless in the development of a fighter.

Cheers.

[Ray Corso]

The journeyman in boxing is essental in the developement of young fighters, even experienced men from the amateurs. Every heavyweight contender and champion must be tested by their promotors through matchmakers who have
access to these men.
I worked for the most well known matchmaker in boxing who had a stable of
journetman who started off their careers pretty good but life isn't as kind to everyone so personal mistakes along with some old fashion bad luck has alot to do with the "growth" of a journeyman.
Most are good boxers who are aware of their tasks prior to a bout. Some bouts are to be "carried" others worked without power!! Most of the journeyman don't bring power to begin with thats one of the reasons they
are trusted opponents.
No one is laying down and taking a "dive" those days were long gone unless the show was a smoker or stumble bum event to begin with.
The worst part of boxing is the opponent who has no clue how to box at all and those fellows aren't journeyman or trialhorses their just being taken advantage of by souless men.

The best journeymen are former fringe contenders who know how to carry,
teach, make look good and loose. Many times the opponent has no knowledge of the journeymans background and isn't told anything about him.
Young fighters coming up don't know much about the business and how its conducted.
Occasionally theres a fight with two journeyman matched up and those are usually great fights. Ever journeyman needs a few wins once in a while so thats how they achieve them.
I worked with some of the best journeyman in the heavyweight division in the 70's & 80's, I never met one I didn't genuinely like! They took pride in their position almost like a teacher or professor or trainer. They had some tough
situations when in with big punchers like Foreman and Shavers and occasionally got hurt but for the most part knew how to avoid damage.
I learned alot about breaking down fighters abilities and unfortunetly how to deal with cuts and abrasions too!
Good men every one of them and a invalueable part of a boxers maturation!
Ray.