Jimmy Ellis: The forgotten Champ

[juggernaut666]

I'm talking about juggernutz,
billeau// it might be time to move on if the mods won't place these idiots somewhere concelled. To listen to this tripe everyday has gotten old, I try to speak reason and then have some fun blasting back but the BS never stops!
I don't have it in me to babysit kids, especially these idiots.

This one kid might have a rude awakening soon!!!

Ray you can private in mail me with THREATS all you like if you cant take the heat stop giving it!Rude awakeing.?.....and im the one being accused of starting fights......Ray again get off the meds hey hows your horses doing.?..:

[Ray Corso]

Most of the threads get contaminated by these kids who have to comment on past fighters to cause a negative response to them, get it!

[juggernaut666]

Most of the threads get contaminated by these kids who have to comment on past fighters to cause a negative response to them, get it!

that's why its called a FORUM you imbecile.If you don't like others opinions stay out of the fantasy match ups!

[Ray Corso]

Nice cartoon in your avitar and your favorite boxer is an ACTOR!
Seems appropriate.....cartoonish and a bad actor, thats you goofballz.

OK time to leave the kids to wander on, try not to hurt yourselves.

[juggernaut666]

Nice cartoon in your avitar and your favorite boxer is an ACTOR!
Seems appropriate.....cartoonish and a bad actor, thats you goofballz.

OK time to leave the kids to wander on, try not to hurt yourselves.

I don't Ray im not here to talk B.s about penis size or personal attacks or CARTOONS i'll leave that to you....anything else you want to waste time on here,since i'll obvious get the blame for soince you guys hide behind the mods here???Instaed of this nonsense just contue with the in box threats and we'l go from there....and Ray I think its nap time....

[Anthony342]

The reason people....some quite knowledgable about the sport, do not believe that size is an automatic advantage that trumps all others is because history does not bare that observation out. Ray Corso has said over and over that the heavyweight division is an open weight class....this is not just whistlin dixie. It means that when a gifted cruiser wanted, or when the heavyweight division was weak, then a cruiser could challenge for the heavyweight crown...notice that there are two primary reasons and not one, i.e. its not just a weak division.

If you look historically at the cruiserweight division since its inception and if you look at size as a contributing factor to success as a heavyweight fighter you will find that excellent cruiserwweights generally did well as heavyweights and that great size, to this day is not a factor that triumphs all others when measuring the success of heavyweights.

For example, Holyfield was a cruiser, what about Foster? no slouch, got beat by Ali....etc. point being that cruisers have had relative success coming up.

Regarding size, if we look at Vlad and Lewis as exceptionally large heavyweights, well two fighters a trend does not make! What about other modern heavyweights like Tyson and Holyfield? there is no correlation that size is a determining factor in heavyweight success....if we look at fighters coming up? Well, Fury is talented and large....a cruiserweight fighter put him on his duff (Cunningham, just an aside), but then we have David Haye, a guy who is also a cruiser originally and whom most people think would at THE VERY LEAST be competative with Fury. And the other contenders? there does not appear to be a situation where bigger fighters are becoming the norm... where is the correlation between size and dominance in the heavyweight division?

considering nutrition and social science we should see an average size increase that is about 5 to ten pounds or so...this would indicate that people, via better nutrition (not evolution!!!) have gotten a little bigger. And that is exactly what we do see...If size was so exceptional a category we should expect to see greater size difference than what is normative to society and we do not! furthermore this difference is explained and hardly indicates some modern leap, rather it is due to putting vitamins in processed food, that is a fact.

Again, an example: I have coached MMA guys since the early days of those tourneys. now, when MMA started the standard was that a guy had to be proficient in Brazilian Ju Jutsu. At least able to neutralize a takedown with a proper sprawl... Now a days things have changed considerably. MMA guys have to know how to box vis a vis modifiying the jab techniqe etc....they have to know about wrestling and actually...an argument could even be made that as some talented guys came in with nice legs, an MMA guy has to know how to at least defend against knees, high kicks and elbows...In other words things have changed and even a great champion like Rorian or his brother could not have the same success, despite their technical exellence...Because the sport has evolved! and there is a direct correlation between what one has to know now to fight succesfully and what one had to know in the late eighties (when the Gracies first started being known).

In boxing there is no such correlation. One should certainly have an average size that is normative for the division....i.e. a kid wanting to fight heavyweight at 180-190 would probably be discouraged, but unlike an MMA trainer dealing with a Brazilian Jitz phenom who thinks his art alone will suffice.... succesful heavyweights have not shown that size as an independent variable, is instrumental to success today. Yes because of training, because of the rounds fought, etc the older heavyweights CAME IN lighter...so would the guys today if they had to fight the championship rounds. Guys gas earlier and throw less punches in the heavyweight division...not a good thing BTW.

Hope this helps, it is why some of us take the time and effort to deconstruct nonsense...when in doubt look at the date itself....today? a guy who wins an MMA type championship in a credible league will probably not be exclusively a specialist....Today guys who are considered succesful heavyweights probably will not be on average considerably bigger than past guys. Remember that coming in ten pounds lighter because of a stragegy is not the same as being considerably smaller or bigger....Its a training decision and anyone who thinks Chris Ariolla should walk around at 230 should get on the Leroy short bus. Take the fat off chris and he would walk in about the size of a prime Louis. He would be maybe ten pounds heavier than a prime Marciano.

That MMA point is also evidenced by Demian Maia, who focuses primarily on BJJ in his fights and still has trouble with his boxing. In the early days, he would've been dominant, but not so today.

[juggernaut666]

That MMA point is also evidenced by Demian Maia, who focuses primarily on BJJ in his fights and still has trouble with his boxing. In the early days, he would've been dominant, but not so today.

Its not just the striking its the evolution of take down defense and grappling...his losses really don't reflect boxing,they reflect on his opponents surviving on the ground to get to the k.o possibility,its also the rule changes of the rounds and stand up if fighters aren't active.

[Anthony342]

Yeah that's true. My point was that an MMA fighter can't survive these days only mastering one skill like they could in the early days of the sport. Hell, even Royce Gracie used a little bit of Muay Thai with his leg kicks to set up his takedowns and with the knees to the face he threw to Keith Hackney, but only tended to use other skills when unable to score a takedown or pull guard.

[juggernaut666]

Yeah that's true. My point was that an MMA fighter can't survive these days only mastering one skill like they could in the early days of the sport. Hell, even Royce Gracie used a little bit of Muay Thai with his leg kicks to set up his takedowns and with the knees to the face he threw to Keith Hackney, but only tended to use other skills when unable to score a takedown or pull guard.

Gracie really never used mui Thai he used just straight up front high kicks to distract Hackney,i'll watch that fight again I don't recall him using mui thai ,I highly doubt that,he played make believe striker to set up take downs or clinches.

[sonnyboyx2]

Its not just the striking its the evolution of take down defense and grappling...his losses really don't reflect boxing,they reflect on his opponents surviving on the ground to get to the k.o possibility,its also the rule changes of the rounds and stand up if fighters aren't active.

The thread is Jimmy Ellis - a forgotten champion.. Yet here is you turning it into a MMA load of drivel..