Why todays era is better than past eras. Discussion.

[billeau2]

"There are exceptional fighters now, as was the case back in the day.... There were times when boxing was strong and when it was weak. But it is worth remembering that the set of tehniques that make boxing effective have not really changed...conditions have changed! Bigger gloves effect how one transfers power on a punch, the ring size determines footwork, etc. Underlying these permutations are a set of canon like physical laws determining the basics of boxing."



This basically all true...however boxing is a bit more easier to dissect than MMA/Martial arts..for the simple reason of the simplicity of the sport in comparison....Watching two guys under the same style "Boxer" with limited rules even though it has different boxing styles within it,is easier to compare old and new ways of how the sport has changed, with the refining of all around abilities,understanding and particularly athletic adavances which is clearly the biggest leap I see. though the more athletic fighter is the one that usually has the advantage. Techniques really don't change its who utilizes them better.Theres really only so much a punch in boxing will be modified where in Martial arts theres literally hundreds of pacific ones ,in various styles.


Boxing..... very simplistic since theres only so many punches that are used and much easier to determine on video who really was better,everyone will have an opinion on it, I see many flaws from past timers that were not refined in there time,i would say watch many 80's fighters as opposed to 60's and there is a clear technical and athletic difference.

The eighties was a very good era, guys were very technically sound. Sometimes limiting a technique allows one to develop it. The Gracies, by reducing grappling to two positions (the mount and the guard) and learning how to work everything off those positions (limiting) allowed them to gain mastery. This also limited them in virtually every other area of the martial arts...but it was a great ring strategy for a long time. So in simplicity comes proficiency.

[juggernaut666]

What about the other positions?

I know they run faster are leaner and bigger,and records are still being broke....again this is sometimes due to the rule changes of the clean up of the game with less contact .Also they test for peds now and any drug substances..back then not really to my knowledge. Football like any team sport is hard to compare...Basketball players are even strong these days...they aren't just tall sticks anymore who are easily manhandeld,moving size in any sport comes into play..

[juggernaut666]

The eighties was a very good era, guys were very technically sound. Sometimes limiting a technique allows one to develop it. The Gracies, by reducing grappling to two positions (the mount and the guard) and learning how to work everything off those positions (limiting) allowed them to gain mastery. This also limited them in virtually every other area of the martial arts...but it was a great ring strategy for a long time. So in simplicity comes proficiency.

The Gracies are a perfect example of where video technology comes into play...fighters began studying the sytem and there fights many in brazil and figured them out,and soon the system was easily nuetrilized.They had to adapt and even when they did they had a few L's along the way....Renzo and Royce lost to Hughs. just one example of how evolution in combat works.Without it ,they would have defeated practically everyone.

[billeau2]

The Gracies are a perfect example of where video technology comes into play...fighters began studying the sytem and there fights many in brazil and figured them out,and soon the system was easily nuetrilized.They had to adapt and even when they did they had a few L's along the way....Renzo and Royce lost to Hughs. just one example of how evolution in combat works.Without it ,they would have defeated practically everyone.

To hear the gracies tell it they generouslly taught people the system and how to beat it lol. the Gracies are indeed a great example of accelerating a trend: they were so dominant that as soon as they became professional, guys studied the blueprints and determined ways to master them. Even in the old days there were lutte Livre guys who beat the Gracies up. In fact the head start they had was that Judo could progress in Brazil during the second world war when the Japanese could not practice it. they progressed the ground game probably because the judo guys beat an anemic Ju Jutsu system(s) and were then handled by some ground fighters during a sanctioned event to determine how Japanese martial arts would progress.

But it didnt take long for professional fighters to answer the Gracies.

[juggernaut666]

To hear the gracies tell it they generouslly taught people the system and how to beat it lol. the Gracies are indeed a great example of accelerating a trend: they were so dominant that as soon as they became professional, guys studied the blueprints and determined ways to master them. Even in the old days there were lutte Livre guys who beat the Gracies up. In fact the head start they had was that Judo could progress in Brazil during the second world war when the Japanese could not practice it. they progressed the ground game probably because the judo guys beat an anemic Ju Jutsu system(s) and were then handled by some ground fighters during a sanctioned event to determine how Japanese martial arts would progress.

But it didnt take long for professional fighters to answer the Gracies.

Lutra Livre is jui jitsu with strikes added..the down fall of Gracie jui jitsu expanding is not the system its the lack of strikes ,I think its better than typical brazil jui jitsu but the lack of strikes with it rendered it to advance..not sure on the Lutra system beating them up? I know Rickson usually handled the quarrels and the best Lutra guy if I remember was Hugo Durte who was k.od by Tank Abbott...the gracie system itself is effective however but to trained fighter who studied them its a up hill battle if you neutralize the submission attempts.


You would have to be the best at a particular art to go against them with NO Jui jitsu experience and give a run at them,i only know of one person to do this against the best Gracie and that was Dave Shultz an Olympic gold meadalist wrestler who took on Rickson in his dojo as a grappling only session...

[billeau2]

Lutra Livre is jui jitsu with strikes added..the down fall of Gracie jui jitsu expanding is not the system its the lack of strikes ,I think its better than typical brazil jui jitsu but the lack of strikes with it rendered it to advance..not sure on the Lutra system beating them up? I know Rickson usually handled the quarrels and the best Lutra guy if I remember was Hugo Durte who was k.od by Tank Abbott...the gracie system itself is effective however but to trained fighter who studied them its a up hill battle if you neutralize the submission attempts.


You would have to be the best at a particular art to go against them with NO Jui jitsu experience and give a run at them,i only know of one person to do this against the best Gracie and that was Dave Shultz an Olympic gold meadalist wrestler who took on Rickson in his dojo as a grappling only session...

Ill try to find the material, I was suprised also but apparently there is a long tradition of these professional bouts taking place in Brazil, often, depending, with Vale Tudo rules, sometimes with only striking. These matches were such that the Gracies lost some and won some, again I have to find the material it was related to the career of a great proponent of the Lutte Livre people. I tend to think Lutte Livre had some notable wrestlers, I don't know about how strikes were part of the system though I had heard it was a wrestling style. I do know that Vale Tudo is "Anything Goes." But Vale Tudo is not so much a style as a set of rules governng a bout.

keep in mind that I am talking about historical bouts that predate the UFC. This is even before the old man was at the helm for the Gracies. One of his brothers trained with Lutte Livre wrestlers, for example. There are a few families that were entwined with the gracie history.

Gracie Jitsu was to many, a form of judo more properly classified. Interesting thing about Judo is that there are strikes in the self defense katas and when Judo is taught for self defense these strikes are emphasized, even though they are % wise a small part of the system. With the Gracies, they often add things to the system for marketing purposes but there are no organic striking tecniques in the system. This is one of the reasons why for self defense purposes I don't think much of their system...but thats an opinion.

[billeau2]

Lutra Livre is jui jitsu with strikes added..the down fall of Gracie jui jitsu expanding is not the system its the lack of strikes ,I think its better than typical brazil jui jitsu but the lack of strikes with it rendered it to advance..not sure on the Lutra system beating them up? I know Rickson usually handled the quarrels and the best Lutra guy if I remember was Hugo Durte who was k.od by Tank Abbott...the gracie system itself is effective however but to trained fighter who studied them its a up hill battle if you neutralize the submission attempts.


You would have to be the best at a particular art to go against them with NO Jui jitsu experience and give a run at them,i only know of one person to do this against the best Gracie and that was Dave Shultz an Olympic gold meadalist wrestler who took on Rickson in his dojo as a grappling only session...

Ok here are some links: this teaser

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVM4Tu6JNJg

this site

http://www.lutalivre-academy.de/publ...azil-part-i-1/

Most people think of Vale Tudo as strikes added to wrestling. In fact Vale Tudo is a tacit agreement deciding what is allowed and it translates as "anything goes." Lutte Libre stuff has a rich history that has elements of many wrestling traditions and...circa maeda, some of the families involved became jiu jitsu stylists, or, judo stylists (depending on the opinion held). What is fascinating to me is that there was a whole tradition of grappling before maeda and japanese techniques of JJ were added and developed.

Now to bring this into the topic at hand: Studying the evolution of combat sports in brazil gives us insight into the progression of boxing. Just as with the tradition of wrestling, and the inclusion of Ju Jutsu, there is a history of boxing...even at times coming up against wrestling. The danzan ryu jujitsu people, who started in hawai fought full contact matches with boxers as well, did this have some affect on boxing technique?

back in those days there was more grappling in boxing, the gloves were smaller, so one development, for better, or for worse, was for boxing to become more isolated from grappling techniques. Does this make the sport better or worse? rhetorical question.

PS: Juggy I was trying to think of a modern, UFC fighter from this lineage. Marco Ruas is one of their guys.

[juggernaut666]

Ill try to find the material, I was suprised also but apparently there is a long tradition of these professional bouts taking place in Brazil, often, depending, with Vale Tudo rules, sometimes with only striking. These matches were such that the Gracies lost some and won some, again I have to find the material it was related to the career of a great proponent of the Lutte Livre people. I tend to think Lutte Livre had some notable wrestlers, I don't know about how strikes were part of the system though I had heard it was a wrestling style. I do know that Vale Tudo is "Anything Goes." But Vale Tudo is not so much a style as a set of rules governng a bout.

keep in mind that I am talking about historical bouts that predate the UFC. This is even before the old man was at the helm for the Gracies. One of his brothers trained with Lutte Livre wrestlers, for example. There are a few families that were entwined with the gracie history.

Gracie Jitsu was to many, a form of judo more properly classified. Interesting thing about Judo is that there are strikes in the self defense katas and when Judo is taught for self defense these strikes are emphasized, even though they are % wise a small part of the system. With the Gracies, they often add things to the system for marketing purposes but there are no organic striking tecniques in the system. This is one of the reasons why for self defense purposes I don't think much of their system...but thats an opinion.

When sport Judo came about they took out the strikes in most dojos...judo is actually one of the first martial arts resembling Karate and if im not mistaking is the oldest martial art where they all stemmed from,but had throws added to it. For self defense, any grappling is going to be good , doing striking from another art would always be more proficient than jui jitsu guys,you would just have to know when and where to strike...Rickson Gracie is actually very good at this I had old articles of his showing how to fend off multiple attckers on the ground,which is still dangerous but you may end up there. I actually look forward to seeing how Kron Gracie does,as Rickson is not teaching him striking and wants to see him win on pure Jui Jitsu .


Lutra livre may be more wrestling based? They basically added strikes to the system where traditional Brazilian Jui Jitsu doesn't.


"Marco Ruas is one of their guys" Vale Tudo


Yes I would probably rank him top 5 at the time he fought. Maybe over Royce Gracie but saw weaknesses that would have him struggling with a Shamrock/Severn...I actually had Frye beating him had that fight took place as well.....I would say he woud be a solid 5. Would have liked to see him fight more.


"back in those days there was more grappling in boxing, the gloves were smaller, so one development, for better, or for worse, was for boxing to become more isolated from grappling techniques. Does this make the sport better or worse? rhetorical question."



Well if you put smaller gloves on the modern/current HW's 5 /6 oz gloves one thing is guaranteed .."MANY" knock outs.

[VG_Addict]

I know they run faster are leaner and bigger,and records are still being broke....again this is sometimes due to the rule changes of the clean up of the game with less contact .Also they test for peds now and any drug substances..back then not really to my knowledge. Football like any team sport is hard to compare...Basketball players are even strong these days...they aren't just tall sticks anymore who are easily manhandeld,moving size in any sport comes into play..

Would you say the 40 yard dash times today are better than past ones?

[juggernaut666]

Would you say the 40 yard dash times today are better than past ones?

yes definatly didn't even Brock Lesnar at 300 pounds when in the NFl run a 4.4 or something? I would think the records are broke.





Here are some top times and no one of the distant past really is on it.....







4.24 Rondel Menendez 5 ft 9 in (175 cm) 192 lb (87 kg) Wide receiver Eastern Kentucky 1999 #247 overall by Atlanta Falcons

4.24 Chris Johnson 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 192 lb (87 kg) Running back East Carolina 2008 #24 overall by Tennessee Titans

4.26 Jerome Mathis 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 184 lb (83 kg) Wide receiver Hampton 2005 #114 overall by Houston Texans

4.26 Dri Archer 5 ft 8 in (173 cm) 173 lb (78 kg) Running back Kent State 2014 #97 overall by Pittsburgh Steelers

4.27 Stanford Routt 6 ft 2 in (188 cm) 193 lb (88 kg) Cornerback Houston 2005 #38 overall by Oakland Raiders

4.27 Marquise Goodwin 5 ft 10 in (178 cm) 181 lb (82 kg) Wide receiver Texas 2013 #78 overall by Buffalo Bills

4.28 Champ Bailey 6 ft 0 in (183 cm) 192 lb (87 kg) Cornerback Georgia 1999 #7 overall by Washington Redskins

4.28 Jacoby Ford 5 ft 9 in (175 cm) 190 lb (86 kg) Wide receiver Clemson 2010 #108 overall by Oakland Raiders

4.28[11] J. J. Nelson 5 ft 10 in (178 cm) 156 lb (71 kg) Wide receiver UAB 2015 #159 overall by Arizona Cardinals
4.28 DeMarcus Van Dyke 6 ft 1 in (185 cm) 187 lb (85 kg) Cornerback Miami 2011 #81 overall by Oakland Raiders

4.29 Fabian Washington 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 188 lb (85 kg) Cornerback Nebraska 2005 #23 overall by Oakland Raiders

4.29 Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie 6 ft 2 in (188 cm) 184 lb (83 kg) Cornerback Tennessee State 2008 #16 overall by the Arizona Cardinals

4.29 Josh Robinson 5 ft 10 in (178 cm) 199 lb (90 kg) Cornerback UCF 2012 #66 overall by Minnesota Vikings
4.30 Darrent Williams 5 ft 9 in (175 cm) 176 lb (80 kg) Cornerback Oklahoma State 2005 #56 overall by Denver Broncos

4.30 Tye Hill 5 ft 10 in (178 cm) 185 lb (84 kg) Cornerback Clemson 2006 #15 overall by St. Louis Rams

4.30 Yamon Figurs 5 ft 11 in (180 cm) 174 lb (79 kg) Wide receiver Kansas State 2007 #74 overall by Baltimore Ravens

4.30 Darrius Heyward-Bey[12] 6 ft 2 in (188 cm) 210 lb (95 kg) Wide receiver Maryland 2009 #7 overall by Oakland Raiders



The most recent modern one is at # 4 on that list...todays athletes in general would be faster. this thread coinside with the other thread you made are athletes/fightersbigger? the answer is yes I refuse to argue nonsense when that's clear as day with the other guy on there...Weight classes are spread out more today obviously,looking at the same weight classes ,fighters in general are more beefed up for sure on average. Heavyweights being the biggest comparison where you once had 160 pound HW champs now you have 250 ones...really its not logical to argue that the time periods have always progressed with bigger stronger athletes in general.