my top 35 heavyweights of all time

[smasher]

thats great stuff, thanx for sharing that. times were different back then, who knows what was going on with walcott at the time. all we know is that was walcotts 3rd fight back from a 4 year retirment. things were hard and lots of foul business was going on during that time.

could walcott have taken a dive in this fight? if not, how do u explain the reason walcott was able to beat the **** out of allen easily in the following 2 fights?



would u like to explain to me why walcott was 182lb for this fight considering in his other fights he was over 190lb? was walcott perhaps very malnourished and weak for this fight?

it says walcott was "slow and and truged wearily at the bell"

perhaps that only furthers my example walcott was very weight drained and it affected his stamina and preformance. he weighed just 182lb for this fight.


- sure this is an embarrasing mark on walcotts record. BUT

A. he dominated allen in there next 2 meetings including knock out

B. it was his third fight back from a 4 year retirment and he weighed just 182lb for this fight, WHICH IS VERY SKETCHKY considering in his next fights he would be weighing in at around 195lb. this could very well mean he was horribly weight drained.

C. lots of foul business and scandels going around at the time. walcott was a black fight. he could have thrown this fight on purpose.


THIS ALLEN LOSS WAS BEFORE HE MET FELIX BOCCHICHIO AND STARTED TO GET TO GO TO BED WITH A MEAL IN HIS STOMACH EVERYNIGHT AND HAVE WORLD CLASS TRAINING. ever think about that?

SuzieQ49,

I've re-read parts of the book and have come up with the following quotes that might shed some more light on Johnny Allen.

"In subsequent years Allen would lose his taste for boxing due to a less than amicable split with his trainer Walter Skidmore. With the loss of focus Allen never again was able to get himself in the same peak state of body and mind that he utilized in the Walcott victory." page 153

"Walcott brought a lean, chiseled, and well trained physique into the Allen fight. If there was ever any doubt Walcott wouldn't be in shape for his comeback, those doubts were erased by fight time when Walcott removed his robe." page 137

"In the early rounds Walcott's cobra quickness and juke moves proved ineffective against the focused Allen, who stuck to his game plan of disrupting the punching rhythm of the future heavyweight champion." page 138

"In later years Walcott would make no excuses for losing to Allen. "I was ready" said Walcott some 20 years later "but Allen was a much better fighter than I had anticipated." page 140

[SuzieQ49]

SuzieQ49,

I've re-read parts of the book and have come up with the following quotes that might shed some more light on Johnny Allen.

"In subsequent years Allen would lose his taste for boxing due to a less than amicable split with his trainer Walter Skidmore. With the loss of focus Allen never again was able to get himself in the same peak state of body and mind that he utilized in the Walcott victory." page 153

"Walcott brought a lean, chiseled, and well trained physique into the Allen fight. If there was ever any doubt Walcott wouldn't be in shape for his comeback, those doubts were erased by fight time when Walcott removed his robe." page 137

"In the early rounds Walcott's cobra quickness and juke moves proved ineffective against the focused Allen, who stuck to his game plan of disrupting the punching rhythm of the future heavyweight champion." page 138

"In later years Walcott would make no excuses for losing to Allen. "I was ready" said Walcott some 20 years later "but Allen was a much better fighter than I had anticipated." page 140

great stuff, thanx for sharing. perhaps johhny allen was the emanuel agustus of his day.

-of course, the 2nd fight in which walcott beat allen easy came 2 months after the allen victory so this was the same allen.


one thing i want you to think about.....

it talks about how "With the loss of focus Allen never again was able to get himself in the same peak state of body and mind that he utilized in the Walcott victory."


funny how it says this even though entering the 1st walcott fight allen had a losing record. NOW, ENTERING THE 3RD WALCOTT FIGHT, HE HAD WON 6 OF HIS LAST 7 FIGHTS WITH HIS ONLY LOSS BEING TO TOP 10 CONTENDER CURTIS SHEPPARD. ENTERING THE 3RD WALCOTT FIGHT, HE IN FACT HAD A WINNING RECORD.

- so even though allen "suddenly was never the same after beating walcott" HIS RECORD DOES NOT REFLECT THIS. IT SHOWS ALLEN IMPROVED AFTER THE WALCOTT VICTORY.



-of course, i dont know what this whole thing is about. walcott was not in his prime vs allen. anything pre felix boccichio Walcott was not in his prime



- walcott may have looked very lean considering he was light. HOWEVER, in all his other fights EXCEPT THIS ONE, HE WAS OVER 190LB. I THINK THIS CLEARLY SHOWS HE WAS VERY WEIGHT DRAINED. JUST BECAUSE U LOOK LEAN, AND UR LIGHT DOESNT MEAN UR IN SHAPE. THIS ALLEN LOSS WAS BEFORE BOCCHICHIO SO WALCOTT WAS MALNOURISHED AND NOT EATING GOOD MEALS, WHICH EXPLAINS WHY HE CAME IN TOO LIGHT AND WAS SO WEAK AND RAN OUT OF GAS IN THIS FIGHT.

- walcott wasnt even with his trainer dan florio when this fight took place.



GREAT VICTORY FOR ALLEN, but this fight is very sketchy and certainly I do not hold it against walcott for many reasons. the first reason is this was pre bocchichio.

[SuzieQ49]

then again, judging from the obvious bias in that story which tries to make it look like allen beat a prime jersey joe.

how bout johhny allen vs rocky marciano, joe louis, ezzard charles?


walcott beat or nearly beat all 3 of them. and allen beat walcott, so allen defintley could do the same to louis, charles, marciano right?

[Heckler]

Smasher, you need to shut the **** up because your posts are insulting to Louis. Annyone who says that Louis was not a good guy(Or anything similar to that) is an ignorant hater.

Joe Louis is the greatest

Louis was definately a good guy. However, i do not hold him as highly as i do Ali. Conforming to what was 'proper' and accepting the position African-Americans were given in society were not actions and beliefs that contributed to the equality African Americans eventually secured. Like alot of African-Americans of the time he was passive and conservative. Muhammad Ali, love him or hate him you cannot deny his contribution to the civil rights movement. A man of his stature refusing to conform to what was expected of African-Americans at the time, showing that people must be assertive and deviate from conservative views in order to achieve progress was HUGE.

People can constantly berate Ali and there is no problem, one bad word about Louis and people get irritated. Louis was a great man no doubt, but not perfect.

Dont take this as me trying to take a pick at Joe's Character. Merely an observation.

[smasher]

then again, judging from the obvious bias in that story which tries to make it look like allen beat a prime jersey joe.

how bout johhny allen vs rocky marciano, joe louis, ezzard charles?


walcott beat or nearly beat all 3 of them. and allen beat walcott, so allen defintley could do the same to louis, charles, marciano right?

Heres another quote from the book that I found this morning.

"Angelo Dundee current trainer of Cassius Clay remembers Allen fondly. "He was plenty tricky and very underrated. He'd get that jab of his going pop, pop, pop, he had that rhythm and if the other guy got cute he'd drop that right hand of his. It kept guys honest. He wasn't a big puncher but he had some kick. I remember me and Charley Goldman working with a young Rocky Marciano and we threw Marciano in with Allen for a sparring session. Marciano couldn't touch Allen. He was lunging and missing with that clubbing style Maciano had in the early days all the while Allen is pop, pop, pop. Anyway Marciano came in off-balance and Allen uncorked a sneak right and put Marciano on the seat of his pants. Goldman had to call a stop in the action, that's how hurt Marciano was. After that we threw Allen in against another young heavyweight I had at the time named Nick Gamble. They used to call Allen 'Smasher'. Anyway, Allen toyed with the kid for a few threads and basically just had fun in there. But that was Allen. He respected the young guys enough to play around with them for a bit. I would be surprised if anyone would take the time to write a book on an obscure fighter like Johnny Allen ." page ha ha

[SuzieQ49]

Heres another quote from the book that I found this morning.

"Angelo Dundee current trainer of Cassius Clay remembers Allen fondly. "He was plenty tricky and very underrated. He'd get that jab of his going pop, pop, pop, he had that rhythm and if the other guy got cute he'd drop that right hand of his. It kept guys honest. He wasn't a big puncher but he had some kick. I remember me and Charley Goldman working with a young Rocky Marciano and we threw Marciano in with Allen for a sparring session. Marciano couldn't touch Allen. He was lunging and missing with that clubbing style Maciano had in the early days all the while Allen is pop, pop, pop. Anyway Marciano came in off-balance and Allen uncorked a sneak right and put Marciano on the seat of his pants. Goldman had to call a stop in the action, that's how hurt Marciano was. After that we threw Allen in against another young heavyweight I had at the time named Nick Gamble. They used to call Allen 'Smasher'. Anyway, Allen toyed with the kid for a few threads and basically just had fun in there. But that was Allen. He respected the young guys enough to play around with them for a bit. I would be surprised if anyone would take the time to write a book on an obscure fighter like Johnny Allen ." page ha ha

- im not gonna lie, after reading that post, you had me on the ground tearing up laughing so hard! LMAO HAHAHAHAHAH THAT WAS THE FUNNIEST **** I EVER READ!




god dammit smasher you got me! i guess im still too "green" for you

[smasher]

- im not gonna lie, after reading that post, you had me on the ground tearing up laughing so hard! LMAO HAHAHAHAHAH THAT WAS THE FUNNIEST **** I EVER READ!




god dammit smasher you got me! i guess im still too "green" for you

Sorry pal. Never again, I promise.

[SuzieQ49]

which poster was it that you convinced your avater was your real photo? thats funny ****

[butterfly1964]

which poster was it that you convinced your avater was your real photo? thats funny ****

it was yaman.

[K-DOGG]

Walcott was borderline all time great, which means, in a nutshell, that he wasn't consistant enought to be considered and all time great.

I've never denied the man was a fantatastic stylist and even an innovator to a large degree...and yes, I've seen film of him. I have nothing but respect for the man. However, a prime Joe Louis wouldn't have had nearly as much trouble with him....or, maybe he would. The fact is we'll never know.

Louis retired after stopping him in the rematch, which tells me Louis knew the jig was up; he was past it. Who am I to argue with Louis? Louis was still a dangerous puncher, as all punchers are, even after their best days are done. Even Archie Moore kayoed a would be mugger when he was in his 70's. As you even stated, SuzieQ49, Walcott was beating Louis in the rematch until the knock out. What happened was that Walcott made the mistake of trading with a puncher....never punch with a puncher....and he paid the price.

Walcott did beat some good opposistion; but lost more times than not when he faced great opposistion...aka Louis, Charles, & Marciano. And to be honest, only Marciano was near his prime. Charles was at his best at 175 and Louis was on the downside of the hill after giving Uncle Sam four years of his life. Exhibitions are not even remotely on the same level as a Championship contest.

How good Walcott could have been had he not had all those problems early in his career is debateable...maybe he could have been an All-time Great. The truth is he made the most of the opportunity when it finally came beating (really) Louis the first time, and eventually beating Charles....and putting up one hell of a fight against the smaller, cruder, hard-punching and very determined Marciano.

All props to Jersey Joe for making the most of the opportunities he was given.