AlI VS LISTON, FIX OR NOT? (PHANTOM PUNCH)

[billeau2]

Liston was a badass guy. The thought of him going down for a 10 count by that shot is a little too out there for me, I mean this is Sonny Liston we're talking about. He was a bad man.

However, people didn't really know how old he was and even though he said he was 32 I believe, there was speculation that he was more like 37 or 38. He didn't have a birth certificate.

There was something going on, and my best guess is that it had something to do with the NOI. Reports later surfaced that his wife had been kidnapped etc and though a book was written about it, you'd imagine that something like that would come into the limelight by the widow after it had all passed but it didn't.

Liston probably just didn't want to know what would happen if he beat Ali. Remember, this fight was in danger of not taking place and they had to fight somewhere obscure like Maine if I remember correctly. In front of no more than a few thousand people because people thought something could happen. And no one wanted to host an Ali fight with the NOI around.

Also, Ali had had a hernia operation between their two fights and Liston was said to be in monstrous shape before but lost it after it got postponed. A lot of stuff went down around that fight.

Very informative post. Liston's age is indeed a big variable here! Some may argue that heavyweights age more like a dry steak than a flower.....but realistically if Liston was past it when he fought Ali, it should be considered. Liston may have lost a step or two and...we do know that eventually his punch resistance did falter against the Houston heavyweight (name escapes me).

[Humean]

I'm talking about his first attempt to get back on his feet(where he fell on his back). I've seen thousands of knockdowns and that was the fakest looking reaction I've ever seen.

Like I said the punch and the knockdown were legit, but I don't believe he was that hurt by it and that he couldn't have gotten back up in time. He just quit.

I was talking about that part, Liston gets onto one knee and then just falls over back onto his back. I've seen that happen on a number of other occasions too.

[SlySlickSmooth]

In contrast those ringside believed it to be legit.

Floyd Patterson, ex-heavyweight champion said: "It was a perfect right hand."

José Torres, the light heavyweight champion: "A very strong right hand"

so you're saying Cus D'Amato was in on the fix eh?

[Scott9945]

I think the biggest mistake people make is focusing everything on that punch. The punch was completely legitimate and Liston's initial reaction was real. But when he went on his knees and fell back down on his back it was clear he wanted to take a dive. Walcott's screw up as the referee(walking away from the fighters) made Liston think the fight was stopped, but then Clay attacked him so Sonny probably thought the fight was still on. Then the fight was stopped permanently.

That's how I always looked at it. I think Liston got hit with a great punch that dropped him and then he didn't want any more of it. I think he was just scared to take another beating. He just didn't have heart.

That is something that is often forgotten. Liston was never counted out in this fight. When the fight ended he was on his feet and trying to defend himself. Walcott only stopped the fight because a magazine publisher told him that Liston should have been counted out. Sometimes I wonder how it would have played out if Walcott simply allowed the fight to continue.

[DeadLikeMe]

Obvious fix. Liston's entire career was choreographed.

[sleazyfellow]

Instead of taking the same beating he had in the first fight, I'm pretty sure he just wanted another payday and be done with it. He took bombs from Cleveland Williams and didn't go down. Sure the punch connected but the way he went down and acted just showed he didn't want to fight.

I say the same about the second Walcott/Marciano fight, Walcott didn't want to go through another 13 rounds of getting hit, so he took some punches, laid down and started getting up at 9. Also, dempsy I seen on video not claim it was a dive, he said he didn't really know and wouldn't know unless he took it. As for ali claiming it was legit, he had to be convinced by his posse it was before he proclaimed it. In the ring he screamed at liston "get up, nobodies going to believe this"

[Humean]

To tie in with the topic of another thread, here is a video of a fight that was far more plausibly faked. A dive courtesy of old Will O' the Wisp himself.

[Cyberspace]

I don't think it was a fix or dive. Liston was a shell of the fighter he once was. Quick punch-caught cold-junkie, whatever. He was hit and lost.

[BKM-2010]

I was talking about that part, Liston gets onto one knee and then just falls over back onto his back. I've seen that happen on a number of other occasions too.

He broke his fall too much, it just looks very fake compared to for example Berbick's numerous falls to the canvas. Also I don't believe the punch was devastating enough to have hurt him to that extent.

[M Bison]

Definite fix, pretty sure the FBI confirmed that the mob were involved with this fight add that in with the fact that Sonny Liston was no stranger to them.