The 5 best fights of all time, What you guys think?

[sleazyfellow]

srr-fullmer (the one where srr landed the left hook)
archie moore/durell
ali/frazier 1
srl/hearns
hagler/hearns

not my personal top 5 list just 5 off the top of my head

[Yogi]

From what I remember reading about that potential fight, Ali saw Bobick at the time as being a potential risk, and because Bobick was white, Ali was apprehensive of taking the fight. The reason being that Ali did not want to lose the title to a white man as he felt it may diminish him as a black role model.

How's my memory Yogi? It has been a long time.

Your memory is good, Smasher...really good if you haven't read the book in 20+ years, because Brenner did mention the fact that Bobick being a white Heavyweight might have had something to do with Ali backing out of the fight by announcing his retirement.

What we do know is that in Nov of '76, Ali signed to defend against Bobick, which was scheduled to be a part of a MSG doubleheader with Norton/Lyle as the co-feature. We also know that some time after signing to fight Bobick, Ali announced his retirement from the ring, only to see him announce a comeback soon after the Norton/Bobick fight was signed in the place of the doubleheader (we saw Ali face Evangelista around the same time as Norton/Bobick took place). And we also know that MSG filed a breach of contract lawsuit against Ali after Ali backed out of the signed & scheduled fight with Bobick...Those are the facts that we know of.

Now Brenner did eventually state his personal opinion that Ali backed out of the Bobick fight because of Bobick being a percieved dangerous white Heavyweight, but he stated something along the lines that Ali only backed out once he started believing all of the tremendous hype surrounding Bobick at the time (Ali did originally sign to fight that same white Heavyweight afterall)...Those are Brenner's personal opinions on what was going through Ali's head, which may or may not be accurate. But the facts that he stated in the book, of which can also be found elsewhere, clearly show that Ali signed for and then ducked out of a scheduled title defense against Duane Bobick.

[smasher]

Your memory is good, Smasher...really good if you haven't read the book in 20+ years, because Brenner did mention the fact that Bobick being a white Heavyweight might have had something to do with Ali backing out of the fight by announcing his retirement.

What we do know is that in Nov of '76, Ali signed to defend against Bobick, which was scheduled to be a part of a MSG doubleheader with Norton/Lyle as the co-feature. We also know that some time after signing to fight Bobick, Ali announced his retirement from the ring, only to see him announce a comeback soon after the Norton/Bobick fight was signed in the place of the doubleheader (we saw Ali face Evangelista around the same time as Norton/Bobick took place). And we also know that MSG filed a breach of contract lawsuit against Ali after Ali backed out of the signed & scheduled fight with Bobick...Those are the facts that we know of.

Now Brenner did eventually state his personal opinion that Ali backed out of the Bobick fight because of Bobick being a percieved dangerous white Heavyweight, but he stated something along the lines that Ali only backed out once he started believing all of the tremendous hype surrounding Bobick at the time (Ali did originally sign to fight that same white Heavyweight afterall)...Those are Brenner's personal opinions on what was going through Ali's head, which may or may not be accurate. But the facts that he stated in the book, of which can also be found elsewhere, clearly show that Ali signed for and then ducked out of a scheduled title defense against Duane Bobick.

Essentially then, for whatever reason, Ali backed out of a signed fight with Bobick. Ali did say he was retiring after he fought Norton in September '76 (Sports Illustrated headline "NOT THE GREATEST WAY TO GO") and this signing was a mere two months afterwards. It could have been a case of Ali deciding to retire once and for all (after signing), then at a later date changing his mind (which he did countless times) when he realized the easy money to be made defending against opponents the likes of Evangelista. Considering that Ali fought the dangerous punching Ernie Shavers in 1977 at The Garden, it seems unlikely he was afraid of Bobick.

I have read and heard some questionable and historically inaccurate statements attributed to Brenner before, so I would take some of his opinions with a grain of salt at best.

Leave it to the posters north of the 49th to sort this one out, and for the record Ali by decision over Bobick and Lyle by KO over Norton .

[smasher]

OK Yogi you owe me for this one. I wasn't far off. Heckler save yourself the trip to the library. Here is a copy of the actual legal document pertaining to the findings of the Ali-Bobick contract lawsuit.

http://www.lapres.net/msq.html

Ali won the lawsuit and a thorough read through hardly supports the contention that Ali ducked Bobick. Brenner made an error on the date of the contract which legally would deem it null and void. You guys can read the rest. Like I stated previously, take Brenner's account with a grain of salt. It might have been his way of trying to save face after he ****ed up the contract. Enjoy.

[Frazier's 15th round]

Ali ducked fighters all the time. It's no surprise here, either.

[Yogi]

OK Yogi you owe me for this one. I wasn't far off. Heckler save yourself the trip to the library. Here is a copy of the actual legal document pertaining to the findings of the Ali-Bobick contract lawsuit.

http://www.lapres.net/msq.html

Ali won the lawsuit and a thorough read through hardly supports the contention that Ali ducked Bobick. Brenner made an error on the date of the contract which legally would deem it null and void. You guys can read the rest. Like I stated previously, take Brenner's account with a grain of salt. It might have been his way of trying to save face after he ****ed up the contract. Enjoy.

Ok, Smasher...I've read that link that you've provided and all it does is says that Ali backed out of a signed agreement to face Bobick.

I'm also no lawyer, but according to that link that you gave, the fact that Brenner was off by a day didn't seem to have any bearing on the court's decision, as going along down the page they still spoke of it as a completely legitimate contract between the parties and not one that was percieved to be null & void.


Taken from that link;

"Ali's claim that there was no breach must fail. When Ali again announced his retirement, it was clearly a stated intention of his refusal to perform and was at least an anticipatory breach of the contract, and MSGB would have the right to sue for that breach.

Since MSGB did not bring an action at that time it is neccessary for the Court to examine its conduct to determine if the contract was then mutually rescinded or abandoned."


Now the follow up to that quoted statement says that since MSG didn't immediate enforce the contract (which was talked about as being still completely viable), and instead accepted Ali's repayment of the advance given & also enlisted his help in promoting the then signed Norton/Bobick, the court decided that the contract was "abandoned" by both parties after Ali's decision & subsequent announcement of his retirement...But that document does state that had MSG taken a different route with their business (like putting in a lawsuit earlier, and not enlisting Ali's help with the Norton/Bobick), then they would've been completely in the right in filing that lawsuit. And what the document also clearly states is that Ali signed an agreement to face Bobick, and then subsequently ducked out of that agreement by announcing his retirement.

I don't see where your link much contradicts what Brenner said in his book, Smasher.

[Shanus]

Thrilla in Manilla IS the top 5 of all time.

[DaGrandWiz]

for me its gatti ward 1, hagler hearns, hagler leonard, the thrilla in manilla and duran leonard 1. thats just my preference though in no particular order

[smasher]

Ok, Smasher...I've read that link that you've provided and all it does is says that Ali backed out of a signed agreement to face Bobick.

I'm also no lawyer, but according to that link that you gave, the fact that Brenner was off by a day didn't seem to have any bearing on the court's decision, as going along down the page they still spoke of it as a completely legitimate contract between the parties and not one that was percieved to be null & void.


Taken from that link;

"Ali's claim that there was no breach must fail. When Ali again announced his retirement, it was clearly a stated intention of his refusal to perform and was at least an anticipatory breach of the contract, and MSGB would have the right to sue for that breach.

Since MSGB did not bring an action at that time it is neccessary for the Court to examine its conduct to determine if the contract was then mutually rescinded or abandoned."


Now the follow up to that quoted statement says that since MSG didn't immediate enforce the contract (which was talked about as being still completely viable), and instead accepted Ali's repayment of the advance given & also enlisted his help in promoting the then signed Norton/Bobick, the court decided that the contract was "abandoned" by both parties after Ali's decision & subsequent announcement of his retirement...But that document does state that had MSG taken a different route with their business (like putting in a lawsuit earlier, and not enlisting Ali's help with the Norton/Bobick), then they would've been completely in the right in filing that lawsuit. And what the document also clearly states is that Ali signed an agreement to face Bobick, and then subsequently ducked out of that agreement by announcing his retirement.

I don't see where your link much contradicts what Brenner said in his book, Smasher.

My line of work is in the legal field. If the date of service or date of issue on a contract or other legally binding document is incorrect, that contract or document becomes null and void unless there is an ********* made to the document and both the issuing and receiving parties sign the *********. Otherwise a completely new contract would have to be drafted, re-served and re-signed.

What we see is that Ali was contemplating retirement when MSGB employee Brenner attempted the deal through Ali's management. A contract was drafted, and Brenner eventually travelled and met with Ali. Brenner then had Ali sign a contract to fight Bobick of which Brenner erroneously and incorrectly dated.

5 days later Ali announced that he was going to retire after all and wouldn't be fighting Bobick. Brenner and MSGB then immediately went to work on a Norton-Bobick fight. Nothing was discussed with Ali by Brenner ("it's over and done with") about the contract and any enforcement of the contract. MSGB in fact encouraged Ali to give a press conference announcing his retirement and to help hype the Norton-Bobick fight which he did.

On December 16 MSGB was contacted by letter and it was stated that Ali would fight Bobick or if Norton-Bobick was already committed then he would fight Bobick 4 months after the Norton-Bobick fight. Ali agreed to return his advance on training expenses if the deal was not done. Neither Brenner nor MSGB ever contacted Ali so he returned the training expenses.

The original contract WOULD NOT have been considered viable if there was an error on the date of service. It may not have been initially detected, however the fact that the incorrectly dated contract is pointed out in the judge's ruling demonstrates that this likely would have been a factor had the legitimacy of that contract come under question.

It never got to that stage because the main reason for the dismissal was based on the grounds that MSGB didn't bother to take any initial action regarding the enforcement of the original contract.

The Brenner spin (I never used the word contradiction, there's a difference) then is the following:

A) BRENNER MADE AN ERROR on the signing and service date of the contract which likely would have deemed it null and void had this become the issue of contention.

B) BRENNER MADE NO EFFORT to try and enforce the original contract.

C) Ali contacted Brenner by letter with an offer to fight Bobick at a later date to which BRENNER EITHER IGNORED OR CHOSE NOT TO RESPOND TO.

These errors and lack of action on Brenner's cost his employer MSGB a lot of money. Had Brenner served a valid contract then immediately taken action by attempting to enforce it, MSGB would have had a legitimate lawsuit and likely would have received compensation in monetary damages. It was Brenner's actions or lack of then that cost MSGB the lawsuit.

Do you get the picture that MSGB may have given their employee Brenner some heat over his negligence which ended up costing them a huge amount of money? Do you think then that Brenner just may have tried placing more blame on Ali in his book to cover for his own ineptness?

[butterfly1964]

My line of work is in the legal field. If the date of service or date of issue on a contract or other legally binding document is incorrect, that contract or document becomes null and void unless there is an ********* made to the document and both the issuing and receiving parties sign the *********. Otherwise a completely new contract would have to be drafted, re-served and re-signed.

What we see is that Ali was contemplating retirement when MSGB employee Brenner attempted the deal through Ali's management. A contract was drafted, and Brenner eventually travelled and met with Ali. Brenner then had Ali sign a contract to fight Bobick of which Brenner erroneously and incorrectly dated.

5 days later Ali announced that he was going to retire after all and wouldn't be fighting Bobick. Brenner and MSGB then immediately went to work on a Norton-Bobick fight. Nothing was discussed with Ali by Brenner ("it's over and done with") about the contract and any enforcement of the contract. MSGB in fact encouraged Ali to give a press conference announcing his retirement and to help hype the Norton-Bobick fight which he did.

On December 16 MSGB was contacted by letter and it was stated that Ali would fight Bobick or if Norton-Bobick was already committed then he would fight Bobick 4 months after the Norton-Bobick fight. Ali agreed to return his advance on training expenses if the deal was not done. Neither Brenner nor MSGB ever contacted Ali so he returned the training expenses.

The original contract WOULD NOT have been considered viable if there was an error on the date of service. It may not have been initially detected, however the fact that the incorrectly dated contract is pointed out in the judge's ruling demonstrates that this likely would have been a factor had the legitimacy of that contract come under question.

It never got to that stage because the main reason for the dismissal was based on the grounds that MSGB didn't bother to take any initial action regarding the enforcement of the original contract.

The Brenner spin (I never used the word contradiction, there's a difference) then is the following:

A) BRENNER MADE AN ERROR on the signing and service date of the contract which likely would have deemed it null and void had this become the issue of contention.

B) BRENNER MADE NO EFFORT to try and enforce the original contract.

C) Ali contacted Brenner by letter with an offer to fight Bobick at a later date to which BRENNER EITHER IGNORED OR CHOSE NOT TO RESPOND TO.

These errors and lack of action on Brenner's cost his employer MSGB a lot of money. Had Brenner served a valid contract then immediately taken action by attempting to enforce it, MSGB would have had a legitimate lawsuit and likely would have received compensation in monetary damages. It was Brenner's actions or lack of then that cost MSGB the lawsuit.

Do you get the picture that MSGB may have given their employee Brenner some heat over his negligence which ended up costing them a huge amount of money? Do you think then that Brenner just may have tried placing more blame on Ali in his book to cover for his own ineptness?

nice post.