The 5 best fights of all time, What you guys think?

[Yogi]

Do you get the picture that MSGB may have given heir employee Brenner some heat over his negligence which ended up costing them a huge amount of money? Do you think then that Brenner just may have tried placing more blame on Ali in his book to cover for his own ineptness?

No, I don't, because I don't see their thoughts in that link, nor have I ever read the hierarchy of MSG's views on that whole situation. You're making an assumption or guesstimation on what they may or may not have felt towards Brenner, which is easily done on both sides of the fence and here's a quick example of such; Brenner may have not forced the issue with Ali because of their "friendship" and the great respect he seemed to have had for the aging champion, as well as prefering his help in the promotion of the subsequently signed Norton/Bobick fight (all those may have been damaged if immediate action was taken) etc., etc...Something like that, but who the hell knows, right?

Now you're going on about Brenner initially signing the wrong date on the contract, which, besides that small mention of it in the link, doesn't seem to be an issue with that court. Whether the date was amended by Brenner & Ali, it doesn't say one way or the other...But the document you linked to does continue to speak of that contract as being completely viable, including all down the page.

I quote again;

"When Ali announced his retirement, it was clearly a Stated intention of his refusal to perform and was at least an anticipatory breach of the contract, and MSG would have the right to sue for that breach.

Since MSG did not bring an action at that time it is necessary for the Court to examine its conduct to determine if the contract was then mutually rescinded or abandoned."

The document briefly mentions the date error earlier, but to me those two quoted statements there clearly shows that the courts considered the agreement that Ali signed as still being completely legitimate & viable, as do other statements from that document (because they did so, should I take one of your views and make an assumption that the contract's date was corrected without knowing for sure?).

Ali's Dec 16th letter to MSG is funny, but only because he was very well aware that Norton/Bobick was already signed & agreed to take place (the whole boxing world knew on Dec 7th of that year, when the confirmed Norton/Bobick fight was announced in the papers) , which he just happened to be helping with promotion of said event...Should I make one of your guesstimations & assume Ali heard rumblings about him being a chicken**** or something in his ear or possibly the press, and in an attempt to maybe save face, he then issued the letter stating that he'd fight an already "busy" fighter?

To me, the whole issue of the date on the contract is irrelevant because, besides a small mention, the court obviously didn't give it much relevance by continueing to talk about it as a viable contract (again, we don't know if the contract's date was amended or not). The may Brennner & MSG handled the lawsuit also has little irrelevance to me, because it doesn't change the fact of how Ali himself acted...To me the whole bottom line is Ali signed an agreement with his intentions to face Bobick, and soon after & for whatever reason(s), ducked out of that agreement by announcing his retirement. Or as you own personal link states, which is also along the lines of what Brenner states in his book;

"When Ali announced his retirement, it was CLEARLY a Stated intention of his refusal to perform"

[smasher]

...To me the whole bottom line is Ali signed an agreement with his intentions to face Bobick, and soon after & for whatever reason(s), ducked out of that agreement by announcing his retirement. [/B]

Where do I begin? Firstly, I have close to 20 years experience in the legal field and have spent much of that time in courtrooms and courthouses dealing with Judges and lawyers and have examined many transcribed Judge's decisions, as well as prepared and examined many notice of motions, certified legal documents, etc.... So on the civial legality issues I raise pertaining to MSGB vs Muhammad Ali I will stick to the letter of the law which is supported by case law in the civil, criminal and Supreme Courts.

In a civil matter such as this, the Plaintiff, (MSGB) would have filed a written lawsuit outlining the allegations while the Defendant's (Ali's) Counsel would have responded to those allegations also in writing. Before wasting the court's time with a full blown and costly trial, a District Court Judge would compare the written statements from both the Plaintiff and Defendant in this case MSGB vs Muhammad Ali and determine if there is merit to the lawsuit. The Judge in this matter, Judge Crowley saw reason to dismiss the lawsuit on other issues before addressing the improper date issue. The very reason the improper date was mentioned in the summation would have been because Ali's Counsel would have raised it in their written response. This is not an assumption. Any legal Counsel that wouldn't raise this important issue would quite frankly be Counsel not worth their weight in salt.

For a contract or any legal document to be legally binding it must be signed and properly dated. There was never any mention in this document of anyone meeting with Ali after the initial contract was signed, something that Judge Crowley's transcribed summation (which is what this document actually is) would have mentioned as this would have been an issue raised by the defendant's Counsel. Judge Crowley must cover and address all the Plaintiff's allegations and Defendant's response in his summation to prevent an appeal based on grounds that he may have erred by not addressing an important issue. So your point that the date issue is irrelevant is incorrect. The improper date issue didn't have to be dealt with directly because Judge Crowley dismissed the lawsuit on the grounds that a suit was not filed immediately and there was no effort to enforce the contract. Had these facts not been grounds for dismissal, the improper date issue and the actual validity of said contract would have been examined more thoroughly, however it never got to that point.

Judge Crowley's statements regarding Ali's breach of contract falls short of saying an actual breach but an anticipatory breach. Judge Crowley's statements are once again required to validate that MSGB did have the right to sue to again prevent Ali's Counsel from counter-suing MSGB for filing a wrongful suit, in essence covering all the bases to prevent a re-opening of the case.

Now historically speaking and supported by Judge Crowley's summation, Ali announced his retirement in a press conference while in Istanbul after the Norton fight. After announcing his retirement Brenner did his negotiating for a Bobick fight directly with Herbert Muhammad. Ali's limited role in these negotiations appears that he signed the contract that Brenner presented him with. As far as I am aware Ali never formally announced he was coming back, and didn't hold any press conference stating his intention of fighting Bobick. So Ali didn't suddenly announce his retirement after signing for Bobick, he was already on record as having held a press conference in Istanbul and announcing his retirement. Instead it appears he had second thoughts about continuing to fight and instead just chose to stick to his guns and remain retired for whatever reasons.

Upon hearing this, MSGB immediately had Ali yet again announce his retirement (again, he had already done so in Istanbul and in the newspapers) then announced Norton-Bobick (according to you) on December 7. Ali then announced on December 16 he would fight Bobick after all. Now Yogi what would be a bigger money fight at that time, Norton-Bobick or Ali-Bobick?

If MSGB really wanted to stage the Ali-Bobick fight all they would have to do was pay Norton step aside money (I assume Norton's contract was already signed). Do you think Norton would have accepted oh say a million dollars to not fight Bobick with a guaranteed shot at the winner? That deal could have been done very easily and step aside money is used quite often as was the case with Lewis and Tyson a few years back. One million dollars would not have been alot of money to pay Norton when you consider the kind of money Ali-Bobick would have raked in. As we know Brenner as matchmaker for MSGB didn't do this.

So then Yogi you have to ask yourself why would MSGB sue Ali? Very simple. To recoup money they lost on the Norton-Bobick fight in comparison to what they would have made on an Ali-Bobick fight. Can you think of a more valid reason?

The lawsuit was dismissed by Judge Crowley due to MSGB not filing suit immediately as well as not taking action to enforce the contract. Teddy Brenner was the MSGB matchmaker for Ali-Bobick and thus it was his job to make the fights, prepare the contracts and obviously follow up on any breach.

It is known that Brenner was very fond of Ali and had in effect mixed business with pleasure and not taken a hard line stance with Ali which ultimately cost MSGB enough money that they deemed it appropriate to file a lawsuit.

If Brenner isn't the fall guy for MSGB losing millions of dollars then who is Yogi?

Do you honestly think Ali ducked Bobick or merely was undecided about continuing to fight when he initially signed the contract which was after not before he announced his retirement.

[Yogi]

Now historically speaking and supported by Judge Crowley's summation, Ali announced his retirement in a press conference while in Istanbul after the Norton fight. After announcing his retirement Brenner did his negotiating for a Bobick fight directly with Herbert Muhammad. Ali's limited role in these negotiations appears that he signed the contract that Brenner presented him with. As far as I am aware Ali never formally announced he was coming back, and didn't hold any press conference stating his intention of fighting Bobick. So Ali didn't suddenly announce his retirement after signing for Bobick, he was already on record as having held a press conference in Istanbul and announcing his retirement. Instead it appears he had second thoughts about continuing to fight and instead just chose to stick to his guns and remain retired for whatever reasons.

Upon hearing this, MSGB immediately had Ali yet again announce his retirement (again, he had already done so in Istanbul and in the newspapers) then announced Norton-Bobick (according to you) on December 7. Ali then announced on December 16 he would fight Bobick after all. Now Yogi what would be a bigger money fight at that time, Norton-Bobick or Ali-Bobick?

If MSGB really wanted to stage the Ali-Bobick fight all they would have to do was pay Norton step aside money (I assume Norton's contract was already signed). Do you think Norton would have accepted oh say a million dollars to not fight Bobick with a guaranteed shot at the winner? That deal could have been done very easily and step aside money is used quite often as was the case with Lewis and Tyson a few years back. One million dollars would not have been alot of money to pay Norton when you consider the kind of money Ali-Bobick would have raked in. As we know Brenner as matchmaker for MSGB didn't do this.

So then Yogi you have to ask yourself why would MSGB sue Ali? Very simple. To recoup money they lost on the Norton-Bobick fight in comparison to what they would have made on an Ali-Bobick fight. Can you think of a more valid reason?

The lawsuit was dismissed by Judge Crowley due to MSGB not filing suit immediately as well as not taking action to enforce the contract. Teddy Brenner was the MSGB matchmaker for Ali-Bobick and thus it was his job to make the fights, prepare the contracts and obviously follow up on any breach.

It is known that Brenner was very fond of Ali and had in effect mixed business with pleasure and not taken a hard line stance with Ali which ultimately cost MSGB enough money that they deemed it appropriate to file a lawsuit.

If Brenner isn't the fall guy for MSGB losing millions of dollars then who is Yogi?

Do you honestly think Ali ducked Bobick or merely was undecided about continuing to fight when he initially signed the contract which was after not before he announced his retirement.

I'm going to ignore all that legal mumble-jumble for now, because, besides the fact that this post may be long at it is, not only do not have a background in law, but to me all that stuff doesn't change the fact that Ali signed a deal with his personal intentions to defend against Bobick and soon after & for whatever reason, ducked out of his original intentions by announcing his retirement.

Ali did announce his retirement from boxing shortly after the third Norton fight, which was a common practice of his through the latter stages of his career (it's certainly not the only time he announced that immediately after a fight). But what you admit you're not aware of is the fact that Ali also did in fact publicly announce a return to the ring via a press conferance in Houston, which took place on November 22nd of that year, I believe...

"Ali Sees Foreman (and Bobick) in Future And Changes Retirement Plans Again" - article heading in the Nov 23rd edition of the New York Times, which goes on to speak on Ali's planned return to the ring

Contrary to what you believe, Ali was in fact on public record stating that he had in fact intentions on returning to the ring after the third Norton fight and before signing the agreement to face Bobick.

"Instead it appears he had second thoughts about continuing to fight and instead just chose to stick to his guns and remain retired for whatever reason."

Or, seeing as how he obviously didn't "stick to his guns" as evidence by the fact that he came back and continued fighting, one may look at it as him not wanting to risk his title against what may be a dangerous opponent...He seemed quite willing to defend against someone like Evangelista and was very open to the idea of defending against Alfio Righetti, as well (Don King basically said that that fight was agreed upon in principle, which was right after the Evangelista "fight"). I know, I know, he defended against Earnie Shavers. Yeah, a good name & dangerous albeit one-dimensional puncher, but at the end of 1976 Shavers wasn't considered a top ten contender by Ring Magazine and had only snuck into the rankings the fight before facing Ali. Hindsight tells us different, but at that very time Shavers wasn't considered at the level Bobick was by the boxing public (magazines, newspapers, etc.). And unlike Bobick who was still undefeated when the Ali/Bobick signing took place, Shavers had already lost a number of times...meaning Shavers' weaknesses were known and displayed in the past, whereas, like basically any undefeated fighter, Bobick's was not entirely known at that time...

With an unsigned, but agreed match against Righetti, and actual title defenses against the lesser ranked guys like Evangelista, Spinks, Shavers (who was still ranked one spot beind Bobick at the end of '77, even after Norton bounced the right hands off Bobick's head)), it certainly does appear to me that Ali wanted to take the easiest & less dangerous route in the later years of his career...God knows he certainly gave Norton the run-around when Norton tried to get and was in position to recieve another shot (forcing Norton to fight the eliminator with Young, having the WBC push back quite a few deadlines to sign against Norton, etc.), which he certainly deserved.

"Do you think Norton would have accepted oh say a million dollars to not fight with a guaranteed shot at the winner?"

Who knows...he might have or might not have. But I do know that Norton signed for only a mere two hundred grand when he was promised the next shot at Ali's conqueror, Leon Spinks, which does suggest that Norton wasn't all about the benjamins and instead put much more importance in getting the title shot.

"So then Yogi you have to ask yourself why would MSGB sue Ali? Can you think of a more valid reason?"

Yes I can, and my answer is also very simple, as well as being factual. Unlike yourself, I don't have to guesstimate what their reasons were and will instead go on the facts that were presented...They sued Ali because Ali had signed an agreement to defend against Bobick and then ducked out of said agreement by announcing his retirement some time later. Both your court document & Brenner's book agree with these factual occurances and are consistent with each other. And to answer your last paragraph...yes, I do believe Ali ducked out of a fight against Bobick, because the facts state it as such.


Ok, in addition to the law and stuff, I'm quite sure I missed a couple of questions or statements, which I'd like to respond to or speak of. But this post has been long enough and I'm kinda tired of typing. It's also late and I need to get up early tomorrow morning, so... I'll/We'll continue this tomorrow at some time, my friend.

[smasher]

Yes I can, and my answer is also very simple, as well as being factual. Unlike yourself, I don't have to guesstimate what their reasons were and will instead go on the facts that were presented...They sued Ali because Ali had signed an agreement to defend against Bobick and then ducked out of said agreement by announcing his retirement some time later.

Please. "Unlike yourself?" "I don't have to guesstimate?" Pretty judgemental statement to make about me considering my 20 year professional knowledge and experience of the legalities of a civil lawsuit. Especially since you have chosen to ignore my informative explanation of what you term "legal mumbo jumbo". Take the time to get off your high horse for a moment, you may actually learn something useful.

Lawsuits are launched so that Plaintiffs can be re-imbursed for damages suffered. No other reasons. That's not a 'guesstimate', that's legal fact. In filing the legal papers pertaining to a civil lawsuit, the losses suffered and requested monetary settlement must be specified or there is no suit, plain and simple. This lawsuit would never have made it as far as Judge Crowley and The District Court without MSGB specifically stating what financial re-imbursement they were seeking from Muhammad Ali.

Muhammad Ali was sued by MSGB for money. Period.

[Yogi]

Please. "Unlike yourself?" "I don't have to guesstimate?" Pretty judgemental statement to make about me considering my 20 year professional knowledge and experience of the legalities of a civil lawsuit. Especially since you have chosen to ignore my informative explanation of what you term "legal mumbo jumbo". Take the time to get off your high horse for a moment, you may actually learn something useful.

Lawsuits are launched so that Plaintiffs can be re-imbursed for damages suffered. No other reasons. That's not a 'guesstimate', that's legal fact. In filing the legal papers pertaining to a civil lawsuit, the losses suffered and requested monetary settlement must be specified or there is no suit, plain and simple. This lawsuit would never have made it as far as Judge Crowley and The District Court without MSGB specifically stating what financial re-imbursement they were seeking from Muhammad Ali.

Muhammad Ali was sued by MSGB for money. Period.

Ah, yeah, I read that part about MSG seeking damages the first time I read your linked document and I'm also aware of why people sue others in regards to financial reasons.

But what I don't recall in that document you linked is the actual amount to what MSG was seeking, therefore your statement of them looking for the difference between what they would've made for Ali/Bobick and Norton/Bobick does seem like a guesstimate, because unless you have something else in your back pocket that directly & factual states what the exact damages seeked by MSG were (which would then also correlate with the differences between the two fight deals), then you can't make a claim to what they were actual seeking as factual. For all we know there may have been other "damages" that weren't directly linked to what the two promotions did make or may have made financially...My answer to that particular question of yours was very bottom line and dealt with the facts to only that case as we know them, which shows that MSG was sueing Ali because Ali signed an agreement and soon after backed out of said agreement. Bottom line & according to the facts pertaining to the case as we know them, that IS the factual reason why MSG wanted to bring that case to court. Any other theories or opinions are only going to be guesstimates and/or assumptions.

Now if I was to "take the time to get off my high horse" and "learn something useful" about legalities and such, is that then going to change the facts that Ali signed a contract with intentions on meeting Bobick and then soon after ducked out of that agreement by announcing his retirement?

Somehow I'd very, very strongly doubt that.

P.S. According to an AP report, in March of 1977, Ali was also discussing & seeking a possible showdown with the immortal, Lorenzo Zanon...Just threw that in for purposes illustrated in my previous post.

[Monsi]

Lloyd Honeyghan v Don Curry was a classic

[smasher]

But what I don't recall in that document you linked is the actual amount to what MSG was seeking

then you can't make a claim to what they were actual seeking as factual.

MSG was sueing Ali because Ali signed an agreement and soon after backed out of said agreement. Bottom line & according to the facts pertaining to the case as we know them, that IS the factual reason why MSG wanted to bring that case to court. Any other theories or opinions are only going to be guesstimates and/or assumptions.

The document I linked was Judge Crowley's summation in other words his legal findings and decision on the case before the court. It would not have included the specific dollar amount being sought unless the decision was in favour of the Plaintiff at which time it would have been stated in the last line of the summation. This summation was in favour of The Defendant, Muhammad Ali.

Once again if monetary damages were not being sought then the lawsuit could not have even been filed. THAT IS WHAT A CIVIL LAWSUIT IS. The dollar amount being sought must be included. Once again that is not a theory, opinion, guesstimate, or assumption. What is it about a CIVIL LAWSUIT that you do not understand?

Also understand that Ali did not legally breach the contract. There was at least an aticipatory breach. You cannot legally breach or duck out of a contract a mere days after signing it when the date of the fight would have been set for months later. It was MSGB's job to make efforts and take action on the potential contract breach before MSGB requested Ali hold a press conference to announce his retirement so they could quickly announce Norton-Bobick. These are the facts and this is why MSGB failed in their civil lawsuit attempt and why an actual trial on this allegation never saw the light of day.

Contract disputes are as old as boxing itself and that was what this was essentially. A boxer changing his mind after signing a contract is nothing new. Ali is not the first great fighter to do this. The difference here is that Brenner "didn't want to sacrifice a frienship" and considered the matter "over and done with", instead of taking steps to enforce that contract like a promotor is supposed to.

Your statement of so-called fact that "Ali signed a contract with intentions on meeting Bobick then soon after ducked out of that agreement by announcing his retirement" IS NOT supported by the findings of The District Court.

I'll go with the presiding Judge Crowley's documented court decision over Yogi's opinion on this allegation.

[Yogi]

The document I linked was Judge Crowley's summation in other words his legal findings and decision on the case before the court. It would not have included the specific dollar amount being sought unless the decision was in favour of the Plaintiff at which time it would have been stated in the last line of the summation. This summation was in favour of The Defendant, Muhammad Ali.

Once again if monetary damages were not being sought then the lawsuit could not have even been filed. THAT IS WHAT A CIVIL LAWSUIT IS. The dollar amount being sought must be included. Once again that is not a theory, opinion, guesstimate, or assumption. What is it about a CIVIL LAWSUIT that you do not understand?

Also understand that Ali did not legally breach the contract. There was at least an aticipatory breach. You cannot legally breach or duck out of a contract a mere days after signing it when the date of the fight would have been set for months later. It was MSGB's job to make efforts and take action on the potential contract breach before MSGB requested Ali hold a press conference to announce his retirement so they could quickly announce Norton-Bobick. These are the facts and this is why MSGB failed in their civil lawsuit attempt and why an actual trial on this allegation never saw the light of day.

Contract disputes are as old as boxing itself and that was what this was essentially. A boxer changing his mind after signing a contract is nothing new. Ali is not the first great fighter to do this. The difference here is that Brenner "didn't want to sacrifice a frienship" and considered the matter "over and done with", instead of taking steps to enforce that contract like a promotor is supposed to.

Your statement of so-called fact that "Ali signed a contract with intentions on meeting Bobick then soon after ducked out of that agreement by announcing his retirement" IS NOT supported by the findings of The District Court.

I'll go with the presiding Judge Crowley's documented court decision over Yogi's opinion on this allegation.

Again, I'm well aware of what people are seeking when they take others to court, so there's really no need to stress those points. But this part of our conversation started when you presented me this question, which included your personal answer to said question;

"So then Yogi you have to ask yourself why would MSGB sue Ali? Very simple. To recoup money they lost on the Norton-Bobick fight in comparision to what they would have made on an Ali-Bobick fight. Can you think of a more valid reason?"

My answer to WHY MSG was attempting to sue Ali was the very bottom line to your question and as the route of it all, was the correct answer. Even your linked document says as such in the opening lines; "Madison Square Garden Boxing, Inc. (MSGB) brought this action against Muhammad Ali (Ali), the heavyweight champion of the world, for breach of contract to fight Duane Bobick (Bobick) in Madison Square Garden."...

Your answer to the same question was what MSGB might or might not have been seeking with the attempted lawsuit, and there's no such record of what exactly they were seeking besides the vague description of "damages" (which might or not not have been the difference between the two promotions...you and I don't know that, therefore your answer is a "guesstimate"). In fact your statement is inaccurate even with what we know of what MSG was seeking in compensation, because your document also claims they were looking for an "injuctive relief", which, correct me if I'm wrong, seems to be asking the courts to stop Ali from fighting and making money anywhere else besides MSG.

My answer to why MSGB attempted to sue Ali was bottom line and the factual correct answer as we know it. Whereas your answer to the same question was more along the lines of what they may or may not have been seeking in "damages".

And how Brenner or MSG handled the situation right after Ali announced his retirement doesn't change Ali's actions during the proceedings. Circumstances state that Brenner & Co could have handled things different and if done so, they would have stood a better chance in the lawsuit...

But you and I both know that Ali signed a contract with intentions of fighting Bobick in MSG. That was what Ali did and that's a documented fact. Also, you and I both know that for whatever reason(s), some time after signing with intentions to fight Bobick, Ali had a change of mind/heart about fighting that opponent and announced his retirement instead...And contrary to what you state, those facts are in the findings of The District Court, because they're clearly listed right there in the document. The court didn't side with MSG in that case, which seemed due to Brenner or MSG not taking immediate action & other things (like asking for Ali's help in the Norton/Bobick promotion, etc.), and they found that because of the circumstances both parties had abandoned the contract...That was what the court found, but that doesn't change two simple facts about Ali that you and I both know happened;

1. He signed a deal with intentions to fight Bobick

2. He soon after backed out of said deal with with intentions to retire.

With the focus only on what Ali's actions were at that time, which are documented facts...Yes, to me that clearly is representation of someone clearly ducking out of a commitment to fight.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

alright thats it i'm making a thread in the Fantasy Fights section Yogi vs Smasher

because you both have got rediculously good grammar and you right in setences and its time to see who will win

[Yogi]

alright thats it i'm making a thread in the Fantasy Fights section Yogi vs Smasher

because you both have got rediculously good grammar and you right in setences and its time to see who will win

In the promotion that would fittingly be called "Two Old Geezers at Caesers II", I not only have a couple of months youth on my side, but also I have the important benefit of training & breathing in the fresh mountain air of British Columbia...Unlike Smasher, who is forced to train in the lowlands around Toronto and has to breath in that ever present & snicky ass smog in preparation.