new HOF ballot - part 2

[Scott9945]

By popular demand!

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Thanks Scott

Can someone breakdown some of these lesser known fighters and what achievements make them hof worthy...

[Scott9945]

Thanks Scott

Can someone breakdown some of these lesser known fighters and what achievements make them hof worthy...

I could use some help on a few of them too. But I do remember Rosi and he has no business in the hof.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

I could use some help on a few of them too. But I do remember Rosi and he has no business in the hof.

I would say the same about rocky Lockridge..

Rocky was fun to watch but I don't think he is hof... He did gives us a lot of great fights so I won't complain much if he gets in, I just don't believe he is worthy..

Reminds me of Fernando Vargas, they both won titles but always lost to true hall of famers like Chavez, oscar, etc

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Where is Greeh,, he is needed to breakdown some of these other lesser known guys.. Im sure that dude can break them down,, he is a walking encyclopedia of knowledge with lesser known foreign guys

[greeh]

Thanks Scott

Can someone breakdown some of these lesser known fighters and what achievements make them hof worthy...

Well, that depends on what you deem to be HOF-worthy. I always thought it was meant for the best in the sport’s history, but in more recent years it has been based on popularity first and foremost. Otherwise shouldn’t some of the recent inductees been voted in before better and more accomplished fighters from earlier decades.

Vorapin, Gamez, and Rosi are the most unqualified in my opinion. Gamez was probably the most able ability-wise of those and actually a pretty good fighter, but benefitted hugely from having tight connections with the WBA. He was a good, solid fighter - no more, no less - that reached his zenith at or around the Yuh fights IMO. Gave a good account of himself but Yuh had started to slow down a bit by the time they met.

Vorapin is probably the worst of the bunch, but he and Rosi are pretty much identical in the way that they racked up a high number of title-defenses while feasting on some really weak opposition. I wouldn’t say Vorapin suffered from the same syndrome as some late 80’s-early/mid 90’s lower weight fighters did either, i.e. they may have showed very good/excellent ability against a limited field of competition, but the lack of unification fights meant they never had another top-name to prove it against. Rat’ never displayed the ability of say Canizales, Lopez, or Mark Johnson to name a few inductees that suffered from this to a greater or lesser extent. With even worse opposition faced to boot, his case is pretty much non-existent, as it should, truth to be told.

If the HOF is desperate for some Asian flavor there is a ton of more deserving and better fighters to choose from. It feels like they stumble in the dark a bit whenever an Oriental fighter is brought up.


Nazarov and Maske probably also belongs in this pod when I think about it by the way, but I am not as well-versed on the latter although I have seen a fair few of his bouts. A solid fighter - nothing special or outstanding either physically or technically - pretty much the same career arch as those above with double digits of trinket-defenses against soft opposition. I guess that Rocchigiani could be seen as two decent scalps though. Nazarov on the other hand I rate very highly. Excellent boxer-puncher with heavy hands much in the same mould as Arbachakov and Tszyu to name two other products of the Soviet amateur system. Didn’t accomplish enough in my opinion to get in though, but in terms of ability and talent compared to the rest in the pod he’s a level above.

Even though the bar for induction has certainly lowered considerably from what it once was, I am not ready to regulate it as low as it would be if these would ever get inducted. A horrendous can of worms would be opened if that happens. If you seek out to have as well-balanced group of fighters inducted as possible based strictly on greatness, they have absolute no business in even being in the conversation for inclusion in my opinion.

With that said, I don’t want to deprive them of any recognition they can get from getting voted into the hall. It just gets on my nerves a bit when Laciar and Ebihara are kept outside in favor of these types of fighters despite them being vastly superior in all areas.

Anyway, if you also consider Moon and Roman to be “unknown”, they are the only two I would deem as worthy out of this bunch.

[billeau2]

Well, that depends on what you deem to be HOF-worthy. I always thought it was meant for the best in the sport***8217;s history, but in more recent years it has been based on popularity first and foremost. Otherwise shouldn***8217;t some of the recent inductees been voted in before better and more accomplished fighters from earlier decades.

Vorapin, Gamez, and Rosi are the most unqualified in my opinion. Gamez was probably the most able ability-wise of those and actually a pretty good fighter, but benefitted hugely from having tight connections with the WBA. He was a good, solid fighter - no more, no less - that reached his zenith at or around the Yuh fights IMO. Gave a good account of himself but Yuh had started to slow down a bit by the time they met.

Vorapin is probably the worst of the bunch, but he and Rosi are pretty much identical in the way that they racked up a high number of title-defenses while feasting on some really weak opposition. I wouldn***8217;t say Vorapin suffered from the same syndrome as some late 80***8217;s-early/mid 90***8217;s lower weight fighters did either, i.e. they may have showed very good/excellent ability against a limited field of competition, but the lack of unification fights meant they never had another top-name to prove it against. Rat***8217; never displayed the ability of say Canizales, Lopez, or Mark Johnson to name a few inductees that suffered from this to a greater or lesser extent. With even worse opposition faced to boot, his case is pretty much non-existent, as it should, truth to be told.

If the HOF is desperate for some Asian flavor there is a ton of more deserving and better fighters to choose from. It feels like they stumble in the dark a bit whenever an Oriental fighter is brought up.


Nazarov and Maske probably also belongs in this pod when I think about it by the way, but I am not as well-versed on the latter although I have seen a fair few of his bouts. A solid fighter - nothing special or outstanding either physically or technically - pretty much the same career arch as those above with double digits of trinket-defenses against soft opposition. I guess that Rocchigiani could be seen as two decent scalps though. Nazarov on the other hand I rate very highly. Excellent boxer-puncher with heavy hands much in the same mould as Arbachakov and Tszyu to name two other products of the Soviet amateur system. Didn***8217;t accomplish enough in my opinion to get in though, but in terms of ability and talent compared to the rest in the pod he***8217;s a level above.

Even though the bar for induction has certainly lowered considerably from what it once was, I am not ready to regulate it as low as it would be if these would ever get inducted. A horrendous can of worms would be opened if that happens. If you seek out to have as well-balanced group of fighters inducted as possible based strictly on greatness, they have absolute no business in even being in the conversation for inclusion in my opinion.

With that said, I don***8217;t want to deprive them of any recognition they can get from getting voted into the hall. It just gets on my nerves a bit when Laciar and Ebihara are kept outside in favor of these types of fighters despite them being vastly superior in all areas.

Anyway, if you also consider Moon and Roman to be ***8220;unknown***8221;, they are the only two I would deem as worthy out of this bunch.

HOF and the bar being lowered seems to be a problem in many sports, that and incoherent and mixed criteria. For example, Pete Rose being denied entry to the hall when many many ball players from the earlt days did a lot worse. Or the Gatti situation with the hall. For the record I would have no problem if they more or less stated that Gatti as a sort of "fanfare for the common man" historical figure, representing the morality play of Rocky, and as a progenerator of one of the most entertaining trilogies in the sport was allowed entry on those grounds.

At the rate we are going we will soon not have a "Hall of Fame" at all rather we will have a mass cavern of fame, sort of like those bible belt Christian theme parks....rollercoasters and all.

I think now a days in Elvis land, or whatever it is called....one can not only see a state of the art Elvis impersonator, but different Elvises, everything impersonated from the early teenage heartthrob, to the karate kicking phenomena to the fat and pill soaked variation, with authentic gin soaked mutton chops and all!

Is this really what we want? a big ole hall of fame? or a nice quality institution that is geniune in only bringing to bare, the names of the most exceptional fighters in the sport, those at or near ATG status.

[Scott9945]

The toughest one for me here was Bowe. He doesn't meet my standard for the HOF, and I dislike him so it was easy to pass. But if Willard and Johansson are in, he should be too. He was better than them both in resume and h2h.

[greeh]

HOF and the bar being lowered seems to be a problem in many sports, that and incoherent and mixed criteria. For example, Pete Rose being denied entry to the hall when many many ball players from the earlt days did a lot worse. Or the Gatti situation with the hall. For the record I would have no problem if they more or less stated that Gatti as a sort of "fanfare for the common man" historical figure, representing the morality play of Rocky, and as a progenerator of one of the most entertaining trilogies in the sport was allowed entry on those grounds.

At the rate we are going we will soon not have a "Hall of Fame" at all rather we will have a mass cavern of fame, sort of like those bible belt Christian theme parks....rollercoasters and all.

I think now a days in Elvis land, or whatever it is called....one can not only see a state of the art Elvis impersonator, but different Elvises, everything impersonated from the early teenage heartthrob, to the karate kicking phenomena to the fat and pill soaked variation, with authentic gin soaked mutton chops and all!

Is this really what we want? a big ole hall of fame? or a nice quality institution that is geniune in only bringing to bare, the names of the most exceptional fighters in the sport, those at or near ATG status.

Of course I would prefer the latter - that would be the optimal. But I think the damage has already been done to an extent, and at the same time, do I want to begrudge the fighters from getting some time in the lime-light once again? Hell no.

I’ve gotten a lot more relaxed regarding the HOF. I don’t put much stock into it anymore to be honest. The voters are biased and those known to the US public will always have a huge advantage - quite understandably, but unfair nonetheless. The inclusion of Gatti was really the last straw for me in taking the inductions all too serious anymore. We can complain about Zaragoza or McGuigan being in, but those are far better fighters than Gatti ever was in my opinion.

But fine, I would gladly do it in a strictly “purist” fashion. But not only to 75% or 90%. It would be all-in or nothing.

[LacedUp]

The toughest one for me here was Bowe. He doesn't meet my standard for the HOF, and I dislike him so it was easy to pass. But if Willard and Johansson are in, he should be too. He was better than them both in resume and h2h.

I agree, but Bowe also has 2 and almost 3 wins over a guaranteed HOFamer in Holyfield. In his prime too.

I wouldn't be shocked if Bowe got in, but I honestly don't really see it happening. His time at the top was short and therefore is not a first ballot hall of famer for me at all.