Lennox Lewis vs Evander Holyfield - Who should be considered greatest?

[The Surgeon]

Both Great but Evander was Greater!

[young_robbed]

I find that a lot of Holly fans cherry pick which Evander was in the house to explain his losses.

Ok - that's not what I did, but a lot of fans do this with their favorite fighters. Whats your point?

I do not think this flies with Hollyfield. In this post you essentially explained away his losses. First off, Moorer beat Holygield that first fight and came in out of condition the second fight.

No I didn't. I said his losses to Bowe & Lewis are excusable; they both had huge size advantages over Holy, and not to mention, Lewis fought Holyfield in the late 90s, when he was PAST HIS PRIME. I felt Moorer didn't beat Holyfield the first fight, it was a close fight that could've gone either way, but i felt Moorer didn't win. Plus, it's well documented that around that period of time, Holyfield was having heart problems. So Moorer was out of shape in the rematch, but holy was having heart problems the first fight. I think it was an isolated incident.

Second, I find it strange that nobody talks about Lewis sometimes being unprepared....I.e. "a prime lewis would have beat the crap out of Vitali, instead of a Lewis that was preparing to fight Kirk Johnson."

People say that all the time. No doubt a prime Lewis would have decisively beat Vitali, no doubt at all.

Holyfield, to be considered a great heavy simply has to have some range in the division, otherwise he beat Bowe, a guy who some, like myself, thought was inferior to Lewis and overrated.

Hindsight is a great thing. Back in the 90s, when they were proposed to fight, the consensus was that Bowe was better than Lewis. I wouldn't say he was overrated or necessarily inferior to Lewis, prime for prime. Bowe would have stood a chance against Lewis prime for prime. Infact, it's not far fetched to say Bowe would've beaten him, IMO.

[billeau2]

Ok - that's not what I did, but a lot of fans do this with their favorite fighters. Whats your point?


No I didn't. I said his losses to Bowe & Lewis are excusable; they both had huge size advantages over Holy, and not to mention, Lewis fought Holyfield in the late 90s, when he was PAST HIS PRIME. I felt Moorer didn't beat Holyfield the first fight, it was a close fight that could've gone either way, but i felt Moorer didn't win. Plus, it's well documented that around that period of time, Holyfield was having heart problems. So Moorer was out of shape in the rematch, but holy was having heart problems the first fight. I think it was an isolated incident.


People say that all the time. No doubt a prime Lewis would have decisively beat Vitali, no doubt at all.



Hindsight is a great thing. Back in the 90s, when they were proposed to fight, the consensus was that Bowe was better than Lewis. I wouldn't say he was overrated or necessarily inferior to Lewis, prime for prime. Bowe would have stood a chance against Lewis prime for prime. Infact, it's not far fetched to say Bowe would've beaten him, IMO.

You say you don't make excuses for Holly and then you proceed to do just that!

You should watch that fight with Moorer again, your far from the only one but it is absurd to think Holly was anything but taken apart by a great boxer in that fight.

Hindsight indeed.....back in them days I made lotsa beer money because everybody was better and going to teach that big ***ert with the lilting panzy accent (lennox Lewis) a lesson...BOwe? people thought Ruddock would kill him, /golata would murda him, Grant would decapitate him, need I go on?

Bowe had more skills than the rest of these guys but the only real proof of any application of these skills comes down to his series with Evander....Gozalez maybe also, if one is generous, but Gonzalez was a bit of a dandy. I mean am I missing somethng? who else did Bowe beat? Golata beat him up and made sure that he would not have any puppies in the process.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

You say you don't make excuses for Holly and then you proceed to do just that!

You should watch that fight with Moorer again, your far from the only one but it is absurd to think Holly was anything but taken apart by a great boxer in that fight.

Hindsight indeed.....back in them days I made lotsa beer money because everybody was better and going to teach that big ***ert with the lilting panzy accent (lennox Lewis) a lesson...BOwe? people thought Ruddock would kill him, /golata would murda him, Grant would decapitate him, need I go on?

Bowe had more skills than the rest of these guys but the only real proof of any application of these skills comes down to his series with Evander....Gozalez maybe also, if one is generous, but Gonzalez was a bit of a dandy. I mean am I missing somethng? who else did Bowe beat? Golata beat him up and made sure that he would not have any puppies in the process.

Bowe did beat a prime undefeated larry donald, though thats not a huge win, larry was a capable mover/boxer

Bowe just missed out on some big fights, as mercer lost to fergueson, he ducked lennox, and holmes and foreman, tommy were all trying to rebuild after lossed

I dont think Moorer "dismantled" evander... Evander did put him on the canvas and then faded after about 3 and 4 rds.. Moorer did fight a great fight that night and clearly won but hardly a dismantling

[young_robbed]

You say you don't make excuses for Holly and then you proceed to do just that!

Well, look. All I'm saying is that those losses aren't as bad as Lewis' losses to Rahman and McCall. Nowhere near as bad - considering Lewis & Bowe were top level HW, and Moorer was an elite HW at one point as well.

That was the jist of it.

You should watch that fight with Moorer again, your far from the only one but it is absurd to think Holly was anything but taken apart by a great boxer in that fight.

Maybe I should rewatch it & score it - I remember it being a close fight that could've gone either way. Taken apart is a little strong though honestly.

Hindsight indeed.....back in them days I made lotsa beer money because everybody was better and going to teach that big ***ert with the lilting panzy accent (lennox Lewis) a lesson...BOwe? people thought Ruddock would kill him, /golata would murda him, Grant would decapitate him, need I go on?

lol come on man. Golota would not beat prime Bowe, do you truly think that? Golota couldn't even beat past prime bowe without disqualifying himself. I doubt Rudduck or Grant would beat him bro. Not if Bowe was in shape & motivated - Rudduck & Grant were two hard hitters, that's mostly what their styles were about - Bowe was much more than that.

Bowe had more skills than the rest of these guys but the only real proof of any application of these skills comes down to his series with Evander...

That's what I'm saying. Bowe was an ATG heavyweight in the first fight with Holy. He showed true skills there; that's the version of Bowe that could have potentially beat Lewis, imo.

Gozalez maybe also, if one is generous, but Gonzalez was a bit of a dandy. I mean am I missing somethng? who else did Bowe beat? Golata beat him up and made sure that he would not have any puppies in the process.

Well he beat up Bert Cooper, Herbie Hide, Donald, Tubbs (old) Dokes (old), Coetzer (underrated win), Ferguson, and Holyfield twice.

That first win against Holy is an ATG win though, so it makes up for the rest of his weak resume.

[billeau2]

Well, look. All I'm saying is that those losses aren't as bad as Lewis' losses to Rahman and McCall. Nowhere near as bad - considering Lewis & Bowe were top level HW, and Moorer was an elite HW at one point as well.

That was the jist of it.


Maybe I should rewatch it & score it - I remember it being a close fight that could've gone either way. Taken apart is a little strong though honestly.


lol come on man. Golota would not beat prime Bowe, do you truly think that? Golota couldn't even beat past prime bowe without disqualifying himself. I doubt Rudduck or Grant would beat him bro. Not if Bowe was in shape & motivated - Rudduck & Grant were two hard hitters, that's mostly what their styles were about - Bowe was much more than that.



That's what I'm saying. Bowe was an ATG heavyweight in the first fight with Holy. He showed true skills there; that's the version of Bowe that could have potentially beat Lewis, imo.



Well he beat up Bert Cooper, Herbie Hide, Donald, Tubbs (old) Dokes (old), Coetzer (underrated win), Ferguson, and Holyfield twice.

That first win against Holy is an ATG win though, so it makes up for the rest of his weak resume.

Look at your own analysis and tell me if there is any proof that Bowe was an ATG heavyweight. If Buster Douglas had beat Mike Tyson again in a rematch and never fought anyone else of real note, would he be considered an alltime great heavyweight?

Golata had Bowe beat. the DQ was unnecessary hence the "polishness" of Golata's unadaptive behavoir.

Bowe showed potential and Hollyfield had the ability to battle him and win sometimes. Moorer was never an elite heavyweight, he was an elite level skilled boxer and I believe that what he showed would have prevailed against any version of Hollyfield because Holly was always a great battler but always had problems with boxers.

The biggest difference between my opinion and those who would like to believe that there is this mythological creature known as the prime bastard maker....Is that I can prove my assertion. I can ask anyone to point to Holly's record and show me his relative performance against different opponents. One will notice quite readily that his efforts against good to great boxers was not good. Toney even had him tasting canvas I believe...Byrd, Moorer totally outclassing him....etc.

What Holly fans tend to do is to try to create what I call da ta ta da!!!!!!!! Mythical Hollyfield man!!!! the man who could father half a nation (child support aside) and beat anybody before these great wars of attrition which define mythical Hollyfields greatest triumphs, took their toll....

Well I don't buy it. Hollyfield was great when it came to a swarming, attacking, unrelenting strategy. he beat other tough guys, all throughout when a battle was the order of the day, but....he could not deal with elite boxers, technicians. One need look no farther than his record.

[young_robbed]

Look at your own analysis and tell me if there is any proof that Bowe was an ATG heavyweight. If Buster Douglas had beat Mike Tyson again in a rematch and never fought anyone else of real note, would he be considered an alltime great heavyweight?

Well it's no secret that there was extenuating circumstances for the Douglas-Tyson fight. We don't need to get into depth about that. Douglas was another inconsistent guy, but he had an ATG performance that given night against Tyson.

Comparatively speaking, Bowe had an ATG performance against Holyfield in the first fight. For real. When you look at his resume you realize that it doesn't have the makings of an ATG CAREER, but Bowe had a lot of talent and he showed it against another fellow prime ATG in Holyfield.

Golata had Bowe beat. the DQ was unnecessary hence the "polishness" of Golata's unadaptive behavoir.

Yes he did have him beat, but he fùcked up and got DQed. So he didn't beat Bowe.

Bowe showed potential and Hollyfield had the ability to battle him and win sometimes. Moorer was never an elite heavyweight, he was an elite level skilled boxer

Moorer and Bowe maybe didn't reach their full potential. When they were on point, they could be great fighters. Problem is that were too inconsistent. They both had defensive problems at times.

I believe that what he showed would have prevailed against any version of Hollyfield because Holly was always a great battler but always had problems with boxers.

This isn't really being fair to Holyfield, in my opinion. Holyfield smoked Moorer in the rematch - but then you have the excuse ready that Moorer was out of shape. Well, in the rematch, Holyfield was ready to go. He didn't have any heart problems, like he did in the first fight. This isn't me making up excuses, like you say. it's been well documented that Holyfield had heart problems in the first Moorer fight, and he still had a close fight with Moorer.

Haven't scored it yet by the way.

One will notice quite readily that his efforts against good to great boxers was not good. Toney even had him tasting canvas I believe...Byrd, Moorer totally outclassing him....etc.

It's no coincidence that Holyfield wasn't at his best for any of this fights, my man. Especially Byrd and Toney; don't you think Holy was past his prime against those two? He had already suffered some pretty bad losses prior to fighting those 2 guys. A prime Holyfield honestly would have never lost to those 2.

Again, in my opinion you are wording the first Moorer fight too strongly; it wasn't that bad of a defeat for Holyfield, it was a close fight. He didn't outclass Holyfield.

he could not deal with elite boxers, technicians. One need look no farther than his record.

I disagree. He dealt with Past Prime Larry Holmes, didn't he? The same Holmes that had just beaten Ray Mercer and then went on to have a close fight with McCall; so Holmes was still decent.

Holyfield dealt with Michael Dokes (coming off of a winning streak, only had 1 defeat prior to Holy) he KO'd Buster Douglas who was coming off of that big Tyson win, and had developed a pretty good gameplan for Buster. But you and everybody else will tell me that Douglas was out of shape for Evander. I don't know if that's fair. Maybe he was, but he was still a good opponent. He beat Ray Mercer, a good puncher with a solid jab, he stopped Moorer who you call a good technician (but you'll say that Moorer was out of shape in the rematch) and he had a close fight with Lennox Lewis the second time around.

So there you go. Holyfield beat a variety of styles. He could fight technicians. a lot of the examples you are trying to bring up are when Holyfield wasn't at his best.

[LacedUp]

Agreed.

Holyfield for me is the best CW in history.

As a HW his record is 26-10. Lewis's is 42-2.

This is probably the toughest pill to swallow also..

Holyfield fought the opponents that were BENEATH Lewis to fight mainly!

There is little real question between Holy and Lew really.

Because Lennox didn't spend the majority of his 90s career trying to gt Bowe and Tyson in the ring?

Of their 90s resume, Holyfield easily has the upper hand.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Holyfield's record vs guys that were considered THE champ in the 90s

Buster 1-0 1ko
Bowe. 1-2 one stoppage lost
Foreman 1-0
Moorer 1-1 1ko
Tyson 2-0 1ko and 1 DQ
Lewis 0-1-1

Total record of 6-4-1 with 3ko and one stoppage loss


Lennox was

Holyfield 1-0-1

Total record 1-0-1

Throw in post 2000
Rahman 1-1 one stoppage loss, 1ko
Tyson 1-0 1ko
Vitali 1-0 1ko

Total record 4-1-1 3ko and 1 ko loss

[Elroy1]

Because Lennox didn't spend the majority of his 90s career trying to gt Bowe and Tyson in the ring?

Of their 90s resume, Holyfield easily has the upper hand.

You have got to be joking right.

Come on man, I know you don't like me much but do you really have to argue a foolish point with me just to assert yourself?

Holyfield fought a great run of opposition over his entire career. He beat a couple of truly great opponents too.

But Lennox Lewis's resume in terms of quality opponents is beyond the scope of who Holyfield fought.

Foreman openly ducked Lewis, Big George! The only fight he ever avoided! Bowe loved to fight little Holyfield being the dodger of power punchers that he was but served us with the most shameful ducking in all of boxing when it came to Lewis which would not be topped until the Floyd ducking of Pac.

Lennox did not bother with opposition like Byrd or Moorer or Ruiz. These opponents beat Holyfield btw. But for Lennox they were actively turned down in order to make a more competitive and lucrative fight, sometimes at the cost of a belt! Why? Because these opponents posed absolutely zero punch threat to Lewis whatsoever or any real technical threat to a skilled HW of Lewis's size.

Instead, Lewis proceeded to actively seek out, and destroy, some of the hardest hitting HW's the world has ever seen still to this day.

Where was the equivalent of Ruddock, McCall, Morrison, Golota, Briggs, Grant, Tua and Klitschko on Holyfield's resume?

If Evander had to go through LEnnox's resume instead, I foresee serious difficulties.

Conversely, had Lennox the luxury of cruising through Evander's instead to the year in which Lewis retired then, apart from those times when Lennox both had a strong opponent AND a bad day simultaneously, he would knock practically every single one of them out.

Holyfield is one of my favourite boxers but to claim that Holyfield's resume at HW is of comparable quality to Lewis's is simply ludicrous!