Dempsey Overrated?

[TBear]

BoxRec have him listed 34 as an all time heavy. That is absurd. As a fighter, I seldom hear people overrate him. I guess Tunney would be the measuring stick when we talk about how good Dempsey really was.

BoxRec unfortunately, has never been considered a reliable source for rankings. I always wondered if they just flipped a coin to determine most rankings.

[Weltschmerz]

Dempsey decided to be a celebrity, and when he returned he no longer had it. The power and ferocity had declined. Too much ring rust. He is an ATG in cultural/society terms though. Especially children loved and idolized him at the time. Like you say Ali had cultural impact, so did Dempsey at the time.

[billeau2]

How do you figure that? Wouldnt we be surprised if Tunney, back in the 50s, had said: "Sure, Dempsey was great for his time... but boxing has evolved since then and he would have little chance against todays more skillful fighters"? Of course he would never say something like that... because that wouldnt accentuate his own greatness. So I dont see how him praising Dempsey can be something we should read too much into.

you obviously don't know of what you speak....See thing is? there is no excuse for ignorance regrding Tunney, read up on him!! And you will find that Tunney was regarded as exceptionally intelligent, sort of dour, and one of those guys who understated things habitually. If Tunney said that about Dempsey he meant it, it was not meant for his credability because thats not the type of profile there is on the man based on a very long life, in which plenty of people could bear witness to his traits.

[ShoulderRoll]

How do you figure that? Wouldnt we be surprised if Tunney, back in the 50s, had said: "Sure, Dempsey was great for his time... but boxing has evolved since then and he would have little chance against todays more skillful fighters"? Of course he would never say something like that... because that wouldnt accentuate his own greatness. So I dont see how him praising Dempsey can be something we should read too much into.

If the boxers of the 50s actually were more skillful I would absolutely expect Tunney to acknowledge it. He was a no BS kind of guy.

Ray Arcel too. He had no problem saying that a modern fighter like Duran qualified as great. The old timers gave credit where it was due but it had to be earned.

[Felix25]

If the boxers of the 50s actually were more skillful I would absolutely expect Tunney to acknowledge it. He was a no BS kind of guy.

Ray Arcel too. He had no problem saying that a modern fighter like Duran qualified as great. The old timers gave credit where it was due but it had to be earned.

If, back in the 50s, Tunney claimed (as you said in a previous post) that Dempsey "could flatten all the current heavyweights in one night", does this sound to you like a man who gives credit where credit is due... or was he just another old-timer who would say anything to make himself, and his era, look good?

As for Arcel... he was 19 when Dempsey beat Willard back in 1919. Stories of that massacre must have made a big impression on a young man - as Im sure would subsequent defenses against Carpentier, Firpo, etc. How could he possibly NOT think that Dempsey was the greatest heavyweight ever?

[Weltschmerz]

BoxRec unfortunately, has never been considered a reliable source for rankings. I always wondered if they just flipped a coin to determine most rankings.

Which would be a reliable source? It would be a subjective one, in the end. BoxRec have a rather comprehensive points system they use, I couldn't read all through it. But they do have some weird rankings that is for sure.

[Ray Corso]

When fans could grasp that theres Methods & Techniques to be considered when evaluating and rating a fighter then you don't need to put so much weight on who they fought. Rather "how they fought them"! Styles make fights and "attitudes count"!
Mike Tyson whole persona was build around Dempsey's, the ferocious, maniac
that todays fight fans know as Tyson's persona was actually Dempsey's reality!

The other misnomer is that theres less talent involved in a pressure fighters style than with a boxer that moves. Fans don't see the skills in a pressure fighters techniques they just see a guy moving forward. They can't see how he does it what he's looking to do with his opponent. People like Dempsey to LaMotta to Marciano are totally miss understood by the vast majority of fans.

Other than LaMotta Rock and Jack could punch.....really hard with both hands!
Ray

[ShoulderRoll]

If, back in the 50s, Tunney claimed (as you said in a previous post) that Dempsey "could flatten all the current heavyweights in one night", does this sound to you like a man who gives credit where credit is due... or was he just another old-timer who would say anything to make himself, and his era, look good?

It sounds like a comment from a consummate technician who came up during boxing's Golden Age and who was well aware of the history of his sport.

If he felt the 50s heavyweights were lacking it was because they were.

He wasn't the kind of person who would lie just to make himself look better. Those dudes respected the game too much...when Ezzard Charles came along Arcel praised him and was dying to train him. It didn't matter that he was from a different era.

[Felix25]

It sounds like a comment from a consummate technician who came up during boxing's Golden Age and who was well aware of the history of his sport.

If he felt the 50s heavyweights were lacking it was because they were.

He wasn't the kind of person who would lie just to make himself look better. Those dudes respected the game too much...when Ezzard Charles came along Arcel praised him and was dying to train him. It didn't matter that he was from a different era.

Maybe youre right... maybe Tunney wasnt just trying to "blow his own horn" but was simply offering his honest opinion. I would like to believe that! Still, the thing about Dempsey being able to "flatten all the current heavyweights in one night"... well, to me It sounds a bit strange that a serious person would make an over-the-top claim like that! However, I dont want to pass judgement on anyone, without knowing the full story... so when, and in what context, did Tunney actually say that (a link would be appreciated, if possible)?

[Weltschmerz]

If you compare Dempsey to Marciano and Frazier for instance, I rate him above them. They are similar fighters of similar size. Dempsey was tougher, meaner, more durable even when hurt. He was faster and more explosive, could knock you out with both hands, and had a better overall skill set. Dempsey had great ring experience too, don't forget he had 100 or so unrecorded fights.