Appreciating the skills of the great Joe Gans

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Gans was a true pioneer.. I think he was one of the earliest fighters to really have an all around skills.. his defense, movement, feints, traps, etc... In his era he was really an innovator, and laid the blueprint for other guys like leonard, pep, pernell, etc...

[billeau2]

I had this book it was all the articles on boxing that were in the NY times from
1890s to the 1980s.There was a interview with Gan's where he talked about the importance of straight punching..How it is a superior way to punch as compared to throwing hooks And how he owed much of his success to his ability to hit straight ....he said and I quote......A lot of people think its Jim Jeffries huge bulk and strength that has allowed him to remain undefeated
That is a misconception..Jeffries " he added "Is one of the most accurate punchers in the business..see how during his fight with Sharkey at Coney Island..Jeffries plied straight right drives to Sharkeys ribs....If Sharkey had been taught to hit straight instead of hooking when he started his career he might be in Jeffries shoes right now...Look at Jack Johnson who I think will
soon be superior to all the big men..he always punches straight.....


Joe Gans was probably the only black fighter in his day who would have white people cheering for him even when his opponent was a white guy...
Its men like him that helped make this great sport of boxing what it is
I know I echo the thoughts of many when I say
Joe Gans we salute you

Your point about hitting straight is very interesting. In fact people often wonder why, when learning combatives, striking is always initially done straightforward, keeping in mind that back then boxing was much more intimately tied to combat, than the form we see today. While hooking, feinting and other movements figure into fighting and boxing, it all starts and ends with delivering power as efficiently as possible. A straight punch gets there sooner than anything circuitious, it delivers the bodys weight and speed with few, if any interruptions.

Gans like most professionals, including those engaged in the use of the hand, sword, or stick...realized that at the end of the day the idea was to get there first, and the easiest way to do that is to perfect efficiency to a point where technique is so perfect and accurate that no extraneous movements take power away from a punch, and that speed results from no wasted movement. Mayweather is a great example of how straight, efficient punches translate as speedy punches.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

First off I want to say thanks for posting this, great read and very interesting.

Let me clarify somethings because I think some people have misinterpreted what I have said about the old time fighters.

When I talk about "evolution" I don't mean the biological evolution from which all life on the planet evolved..LOL Some people have mentioned that and it's not what I meant.

I meant evolution in terms of the change that boxing has gone through throughout the decades which is only natural for all sports to go through in such a long period of time. Here is a quote from the very article the TS posted to prove my point:

While watching the fight, it’s important to realize that boxing has changed an awful lot between then and now. For instance, fights went on a lot longer and the gloves were a lot smaller. As a result, different circumstances called for different styles and strategies and there was more emphasis placed on in-fighting which included extensive holding and wrestling for position. Also, because those gloves were a lot smaller, it was far more difficult for a fighter to simply apply the ear muffs and shell up when defending. Far more thought had to be placed on hand evasions such as glove blocking, hence, boxing had a different look and feel to it back then.

There are a couple of things we need to examine here, first that the scientific achievements in our society has undoubtedly changed everything we do and that includes sports. Boxing is no exception and the nutrition, apparatus, training methods, change in the way refs and judges view the fights, and finally the physical change of the athlete.

Even though there's not much to see as far as film of Joe Gans, it's easy to see he was a dynamic and great fighter. What sticks out to me the most is Gans mastery of distance. He fought like a fencer, he had this amazing ability to step in and out, make his opponent miss and then counter punch with amazing accuracy.

Distance IMO is one of the most important, if not the most important attributes a fighter can have. Because it is distance that opens the door for timing, and timing is what will nullify speed. You can be a slower fighter than your opponent, but if you understand how to use distance and timing, you can neutralize his speed.

Another thing that pops out to me about Gans, is his upright stance, now in todays boxing that would be frowned upon, and I even get frustrated with this because it makes your chin stand straight up, and does disturb your balance but not with Gans. Simply because he had a special ability to step in and out so quickly, with his feet and balance under him, with an immediate ability to counter punch.

Now we need to take a look at the differences in the boxing of that time to today. As we can see, boxing was much rougher then. You could use many techniques then, that are simply not allowed now. If you notice, Gans also is very adept at holding inside, punching on the break, and punching while in the clinch. Most great fighters of those times did this well, because it was much more allowed than it is now. I do believe that art of that rough and tumble inside fighting has been lost because of the rule changes of today. Refs simply wouldn't allow this in modern boxing.

Another interesting aspect of Gans is how they blocked and rolled punches. The article talks about how much smaller the gloves were then than now, I do agree somewhat but I do feel as I stated before that a pair of 8oz horse hair Cleto Reyes are about as brutal a pro glove as you will find in boxing period. Because of these gloves though, Gans rolled and blocked shots with his forearms, which is another thing you don't see in today's boxing.

One of the reasons this technique isn't taught, is because if you don't move like the great Joe Gans, separating your arm from your head that far, will result in you getting cracked, something you don't want. The high guard was really emphasized because boxers started to fake shots underneath and then come over the top in mid motion. Erik Morales is an expert at this, and if you watch his first fight with Danny Garcia, was really having his way with this shot.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

Part 2

I want to talk about how boxing has changed and why it has changed as well.


Let me clarify something very quickly, I respect, admire and love watching the old time fighters. In no way because I say boxing has "evolved" do I think it has evolved for the worse. The biological evolution isn't a ladder, it's a tree branch which sprouts out in many different forms. I believe sports and martial arts to evolve in very much the same way.

I do agree wholeheartedly that techniques have been lost in the sport of boxing. A fighter like Joe Gans is a perfect example of this, non traditional movements, stances and hand placement when you compare it to today's techniques, but they worked and worked well. There's a reason for this, it's because the rules of boxing have changed.

That with what I talked about before, the nutrition, training techniques, apparatus and evolution of the athlete have changed the sport into something different. We see the techniques on the inside of the old time fighters that is simply not allowed in today's sport. Refs won't allow you to clinch and hit the way they once did. I remember watching fights where if there was a knockdown, the other fighter didn't have to go to a neutral corner. He could literally stand over his opponent and wait for him to come off his knees and wallop him all over again...lol

As I said before, in the 60's I think there was more of an emphasis on defense than every before. It was done from a more technical point of view. Hands high, slips and weaves were instituted as the norm, and counters changed depending on the punch you would throw. Saying that I do think that the greats of old would fair well in today's game, there's no doubt about that. I also think if Gans were alive today though, he wouldn't be fighting like that in today's sport either.

So what we have is an evolution, but not necessarily for the better. I think the rules and change of equipment, training and philosophy is what changed the sport to what it is now. Of course there's some old timers that don't like where it's gone, I on the other hand do like it. I like change, because it happens organically. It doesn't happen because of what someone forces on someone else, it happens because of the physical and mental changes that happen within the sport.

There isn't some authority that all of a sudden proclaims that we change the way we do things, it changes because of the other mitigating factors in the sport. Take American football for example, it was once played without helmets. So players were taught to tackle with the shoulder and drive the legs. When the helmet was introduced, it changed the way the game was played because the same players were now leading with the helmet and using the very instrument of safety as a weapon. Fast forward 30 years, and you have freak athletes who are now taking 20 yard sprints and knocking people unconscious. So what did the NFL do? Change the rules to make the game safer, because of a result of a piece of equipment that was supposed to do that from the very beginning.

It would be very interesting to see some of the old techniques of boxing come back, and for the record I'm not opposed to that. I think it would have to be an amalgamation of modern and old techniques, coupled that with the natural ability of the fighter to emphasize the strengths he has.


Battling Nelson, great article and it was a pleasure reading it. I hope I wasn't too long winded and clarified some of my position.

[BattlingNelson]

First off I want to say thanks for posting this, great read and very interesting.

Thanks and I agree. I also appreciate your thoughts on Gans very much my friend.

Let me clarify somethings because I think some people have misinterpreted what I have said about the old time fighters.

When I talk about "evolution" I don't mean the biological evolution from which all life on the planet evolved..LOL Some people have mentioned that and it's not what I meant.

I meant evolution in terms of the change that boxing has gone through throughout the decades which is only natural for all sports to go through in such a long period of time. Here is a quote from the very article the TS posted to prove my point:



There are a couple of things we need to examine here, first that the scientific achievements in our society has undoubtedly changed everything we do and that includes sports. Boxing is no exception and the nutrition, apparatus, training methods, change in the way refs and judges view the fights, and finally the physical change of the athlete.

Even though there's not much to see as far as film of Joe Gans, it's easy to see he was a dynamic and great fighter. What sticks out to me the most is Gans mastery of distance. He fought like a fencer, he had this amazing ability to step in and out, make his opponent miss and then counter punch with amazing accuracy.

Distance IMO is one of the most important, if not the most important attributes a fighter can have. Because it is distance that opens the door for timing, and timing is what will nullify speed. You can be a slower fighter than your opponent, but if you understand how to use distance and timing, you can neutralize his speed.

Another thing that pops out to me about Gans, is his upright stance, now in todays boxing that would be frowned upon, and I even get frustrated with this because it makes your chin stand straight up, and does disturb your balance but not with Gans. Simply because he had a special ability to step in and out so quickly, with his feet and balance under him, with an immediate ability to counter punch.

Glans's superior height and reach also enabled him to have that rather upright style. He also has that great jab as well.

Note also how he intercepts many of Herman's punches with the inside of the gloves. It reminds me of a tabletennisplayer.

Now we need to take a look at the differences in the boxing of that time to today. As we can see, boxing was much rougher then. You could use many techniques then, that are simply not allowed now. If you notice, Gans also is very adept at holding inside, punching on the break, and punching while in the clinch. Most great fighters of those times did this well, because it was much more allowed than it is now. I do believe that art of that rough and tumble inside fighting has been lost because of the rule changes of today. Refs simply wouldn't allow this in modern boxing.

Another interesting aspect of Gans is how they blocked and rolled punches. The article talks about how much smaller the gloves were then than now, I do agree somewhat but I do feel as I stated before that a pair of 8oz horse hair Cleto Reyes are about as brutal a pro glove as you will find in boxing period. Because of these gloves though, Gans rolled and blocked shots with his forearms, which is another thing you don't see in today's boxing.

The gloves were 4 oz horsehair. Just to nitpick.

One of the reasons this technique isn't taught, is because if you don't move like the great Joe Gans, separating your arm from your head that far, will result in you getting cracked, something you don't want. The high guard was really emphasized because boxers started to fake shots underneath and then come over the top in mid motion. Erik Morales is an expert at this, and if you watch his first fight with Danny Garcia, was really having his way with this shot.

Morales is a food Call. The name that came to my mind watching the film, was Tommy Hearns. Gans showed great combinations, power in both hands and a lethal one punch KO with the right.

Did you notice how they tried to revive Herman BTW? Lifting the concussed fella up by his feet and Holding him upside down lol. I guess the theory was to force some blood into his brain.

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

[QUOTE]

Thanks and I agree. I also appreciate your thoughts on Gans very much my friend.


Glans's superior height and reach also enabled him to have that rather upright style. He also has that great jab as well.

No doubt, I can see the comparison to Joe Lewis when you look at simply the style. Amazing jab, and he threw it off rhythm which is something I try and emphasize with my fighters.

Note also how he intercepts many of Herman's punches with the inside of the gloves. It reminds me of a tabletennisplayer.

The gloves were 4 oz horsehair. Just to nitpick.

That's another old technique that has changed a lot in years. When I teach my "catches", they are very minimal in movement. I can't describe them by typing, I wish I could show you.

I didn't know they were that small, wow, I stand corrected. I recently saw a fight between Lauro Salas and Jimmy Carter, they said they had 8oz gloves but that was in the 50's.

Morales is a good Call. The name that came to my mind watching the film, was Tommy Hearns. Gans showed great combinations, power in both hands and a lethal one punch KO with the right.

I didn't want to use Morales to compare him to Gans, I wanted to use Morales as to why these types of blocks aren't used as much anymore. Tommy Hearns is a great comparison though.

Did you notice how they tried to revive Herman BTW? Lifting the concussed fella up by his feet and Holding him upside down lol. I guess the theory was to force some blood into his brain.

Yea, crazy. I also have seen them slap the back of a fighters neck to revive him. There were things they did that would be seen as bizarre in today's time.

[McGoorty]

The old master Joe Gans. One of my personal all-time favourites.

Below is a fine analysis of his fantastic skillset written by Lee Wylie:

Great article, To me the mark of a great fighter is using defence to set up a crushing attack, not many today do this they simply run away, the great example is Willie Pep (I use him because the films of him are in good condition)... Pep was a master evader but ALWAYS was in position to attack,, in other words he is always within range.. most of todays defensive fighters are not , they are too far away to actually capitalize on a mistake. Pep was no runner, he was an attacker, boxing is essentially about attack, without attack, no fight can end.

[McGoorty]

Yes. Also note his argument that the reason for not using a high guard is also because of the longer duration of fights.

Also the stop hit technique is worth noticing.

Yes it's a very good read.

Yes I have stated many times here about the holding gloves up high being suiciadal back then when fights were 20 rounds, in fact use footage of Darcy for an example, fighters did get their gloves up high, but they started from hands low and when a punch was coming at them Darcy quickly puts his hands up when it's needed, freeze frame Darcy at this point and it looks like he is in a modern posture. He was far from unique in doing that, it is an fact the natural thing to do.

[JimEarl]

While watching the fight, it’s important to realize that boxing has changed an awful lot between then and now. For instance, fights went on a lot longer and the gloves were a lot smaller. As a result, different circumstances called for different styles and strategies and there was more emphasis placed on in-fighting which included extensive holding and wrestling for position. Also, because those gloves were a lot smaller, it was far more difficult for a fighter to simply apply the ear muffs and shell up when defending. Far more thought had to be placed on hand evasions such as glove blocking, hence, boxing had a different look and feel to it back then.

Excellent.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard people (including an ex pro fighter) say, in so many words, that contemporary fighters would walk through Gans because he didn't keep his guard up......without even bothering to note the subtle defensive measures that Gans used to keep his opponent off balance and out of position. It's like if they didn't see it used by contemporary fighters it wouldn't ever work on them.

[billeau2]

People not trained in, or to analyze combatives have little understanding of distance. Guys like Joe G had such skills in what is called MaaI in the japanese arts, the concept of distance.

The first mistake people make is in assuming there is a proper distance for all applications. Guys like Ganz would often be just in range of a punch, or just an inch out of range, so as Mcgorty has said a defense could become an offensive measure.

Sword practice gives one a unique perspective. If I know I am just in range of a cut it means I have to attack before, or as my opponent tries to cut me down. If I am just out of range, it means as long as I move the same distance my opponent does I will remain so.

Applying these concepts to Joe G, knowing that fencing logistics were the first vocabularly boxers used via James Figg.....we can know that a guard is only necessary at certain times.

Gans and other fighters of the time did not square up unless they were attacking, countering or had a reason why two hands were to be employed. Naturally if I am at a sword length distance (3 feet or so) and just out of range, I will show you some view of my profile...this is another thing lost on people who think a guard has to be constant. When I counter you, or attack you, it is then that I want to be squared up to you because, I want both hands to be free to attack with and its hard to do that from the side. This is why we have pictures of past fighters looking like they are running towards the opponent with the hands up.

In Martial arts we do the same: when defending I present a side initially, as I come it to attack I get lower, the guard comes up and I present both hands to attack with. Boxing in Joe's time was more of a practical art and he shows this with his willy ways.