How great...

[butterfly1964]

How great would Ali have been without the layoff and he was trained by and listened to Rooney....

IMO dundee was better than rooney.

[sleazyfellow]

IMO not, rooney has accually been in the ring fighting and dundee has not, so rooney understands more about what goes on in there

[SuzieQ49]

One thing you're wrong about RockMarcianofan is that Charlie Goldman was not a good trainer for Marciano. He was the BEST trainer Rocky could have asked for. He did not teach the Rock to take a punch, he taught him the crouch, how to shorten up his punches, fight inside, how to get inside, everything he needed. With his 67" reach there is no way he would have ever been successful as a long range jab and cross fighter.

If Marciano had taken up boxing earlier though, he would have gotten better at his style quicker. More so than almost all other champions, Marciano improved the most from his pro debut to his last fight. Marciano during his pro debut was embarassingly sloppy, had terrible balance, and threw wide ass looping punches. He wasn't even close to a world class fighter and most people thought he had no future in boxing above the club fighter circuit. It's only through sheer will, strength, and an awesome chin that he survived those early fights against better schooled opposition.

Charlie Goldman took the best of what the raw Marciano had to offer and refined it into an all time great fighter, and not boxer. Goldman was the very best person around at the time to be training Marciano and it was a match made in heaven.

Actually Marciano reached his physical peak around the Moore fight IMO (perhaps a bit before), but he still had much to learn when he retired. If he had started fighting when Ali did, at 12, honing his skills and refining his style from such a young age, he would have been an even greater fighter than he was. But unfortunately for boxing history, Marciano did not even have his first boxing lesson until he was in his early twenties. For some reason this is overlooked and ignored but it is quite important for understanding his poor showings (against an old Joe Louis he wasn't even close to his prime, he was very raw even then, and in the time span between the first and second fights with LaStarza, Roland remarked that Marciano had improved 100%, particulary his defense).

If Marciano had Ali's early start, he would have been much harder to hit, sharper and more accurate with his punches, would have had better footwork, and would have been a wiser fighter more adept at cutting off the ring. Anything who thinks otherwise is just a biased fool.

totally agree on the charley goldman part. he was BY FAR the best trainer for rocky. he turned rocky into a technician in rocky's own way.

[smasher]

IMO dundee was better than rooney.

Come on butterfly you have to know I was kidding. Look at who Dundee trained then look at Rooney's resume. Tyson, uhhhh, Pazienza (after he was already a world ranked fighter) uuuhhhh Tyson, uhhhh did I mention Tyson? D'Amato discovered and trained Tyson in the early years. Rooney was still fighting as a pro. Last I saw of Rooney he was getting starched by Alexis Arguello with one right hand in the second round. Never saw him fight after that.

Rooney hasn't trained **** all from the ground up. He gets elevated to legendary trainer status by the know nothing Tyson Brigade that figure Tyson's downfall must be the result of the loss of Rooney. Name me any great fighters Rooney has trained....yeah I thought so

[butterfly1964]

Come on butterfly you have to know I was kidding. Look at who Dundee trained then look at Rooney's resume. Tyson, uhhhh, Pazienza (after he was already a world ranked fighter) uuuhhhh Tyson, uhhhh did I mention Tyson? D'Amato discovered and trained Tyson in the early years. Rooney was still fighting as a pro. Last I saw of Rooney he was getting starched by Alexis Arguello with one right hand in the second round. Never saw him fight after that.

Rooney hasn't trained **** all from the ground up. He gets elevated to legendary trainer status by the know nothing Tyson Brigade that figure Tyson's downfall must be the result of the loss of Rooney. Name me any great fighters Rooney has trained....yeah I thought so

yeah, that's the truth! i guess i was thinking of cus, not rooney.

[butterfly1964]

bump......