How great...

[smasher]

if cus stayed alive or he kept with rooney there's little doubht in my mind Tyson would have been undefeated because no boxer he ever faced could have stood up to prime Tyson, not Holyfeild,not Lewis,not douglas,not williams, and especially not mcbride and thats all the people he lost too so, i think prime tyson may have even Ko'd old foreman (though he wouldn't have tried)

A trainer can't fight the fights. Tyson's problems stemmed from his inability to handle adversity. EVERY fighter at some time gets floored, cut, hurt, or trails in points. It is the GREAT fighter that overcomes this adversity and triumphs. This is defined as character, heart, and determination.

Charley Goldman didn't KO Ezzard Charles when Marciano's nose was split. Gil Clancy didn't get off the floor twice against Ron Lyle to win by KO. Angelo Dundee didn't rally to KO Tommy Hearns...etc.

People need to understand that Kevin Rooney is not the scapegoat in Tyson's failures. MIKE TYSON himself is the reason and his shortcomings as a fighter and his defeats were from a lack of a champion's psyche.

Kevin Rooney may have kept him more focused in training and kept him truer to his fighting style. However, when it came to the moment of adversity, and every fighter encounters it at sometime, even Kevin Rooney or even Cus D'Amato wouldn't have been able to help him.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

A trainer can't fight the fights. Tyson's problems stemmed from his inability to handle adversity. EVERY fighter at some time gets floored, cut, hurt, or trails in points. It is the GREAT fighter that overcomes this adversity and triumphs. This is defined as character, heart, and determination.

Charley Goldman didn't KO Ezzard Charles when Marciano's nose was split. Gil Clancy didn't get off the floor twice against Ron Lyle to win by KO. Angelo Dundee didn't rally to KO Tommy Hearns...etc.

People need to understand that Kevin Rooney is not the scapegoat in Tyson's failures. MIKE TYSON himself is the reason and his shortcomings as a fighter and his defeats were from a lack of a champion's psyche.

Kevin Rooney may have kept him more focused in training and kept him truer to his fighting style. However, when it came to the moment of adversity, and every fighter encounters it at sometime, even Kevin Rooney or even Cus D'Amato wouldn't have been able to help him.

Technically the trainers are the ones fighting because its there teachings that go into there ring, maybe not their body's but there teachings in the athletes, so if you teach somebody to throw punches and knee ppl thats what they're going to do most of the time, if a fighter has adifferent trainer sometimes they'd do better sometimes worse

you think tyson would have been as good as he was without cus? no
so even though Cus didn't go in the ring because of him Tyson was beating ppl so..

but in the same respect your right its up to the Fighter to find a different trainer if they dont' like them and the trainers not the on throwing the punches so while i kinda of disagree for the most part your right

[smasher]

the trainers not the on throwing the punches so while i kinda of disagree for the most part your right

It's not the throwing of the punches. IT'S GETTING HIT WITH PUNCHES. It's about handling adversity. Tyson folded like a cheap suit when faced with fight or flight.

Fighters enter the ring with a degree of fear. That is natural. It is how they handle and cope with that fear that seperates the hero form the coward.

Tyson is given far too much grace and far too many excuses.

[Kid Achilles]

One thing you're wrong about RockMarcianofan is that Charlie Goldman was not a good trainer for Marciano. He was the BEST trainer Rocky could have asked for. He did not teach the Rock to take a punch, he taught him the crouch, how to shorten up his punches, fight inside, how to get inside, everything he needed. With his 67" reach there is no way he would have ever been successful as a long range jab and cross fighter.

If Marciano had taken up boxing earlier though, he would have gotten better at his style quicker. More so than almost all other champions, Marciano improved the most from his pro debut to his last fight. Marciano during his pro debut was embarassingly sloppy, had terrible balance, and threw wide ass looping punches. He wasn't even close to a world class fighter and most people thought he had no future in boxing above the club fighter circuit. It's only through sheer will, strength, and an awesome chin that he survived those early fights against better schooled opposition.

Charlie Goldman took the best of what the raw Marciano had to offer and refined it into an all time great fighter, and not boxer. Goldman was the very best person around at the time to be training Marciano and it was a match made in heaven.

Actually Marciano reached his physical peak around the Moore fight IMO (perhaps a bit before), but he still had much to learn when he retired. If he had started fighting when Ali did, at 12, honing his skills and refining his style from such a young age, he would have been an even greater fighter than he was. But unfortunately for boxing history, Marciano did not even have his first boxing lesson until he was in his early twenties. For some reason this is overlooked and ignored but it is quite important for understanding his poor showings (against an old Joe Louis he wasn't even close to his prime, he was very raw even then, and in the time span between the first and second fights with LaStarza, Roland remarked that Marciano had improved 100%, particulary his defense).

If Marciano had Ali's early start, he would have been much harder to hit, sharper and more accurate with his punches, would have had better footwork, and would have been a wiser fighter more adept at cutting off the ring. Anything who thinks otherwise is just a biased fool.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

One thing you're wrong about RockMarcianofan is that Charlie Goldman was not a good trainer for Marciano. He was the BEST trainer Rocky could have asked for. He did not teach the Rock to take a punch, he taught him the crouch, how to shorten up his punches, fight inside, how to get inside, everything he needed. With his 67" reach there is no way he would have ever been successful as a long range jab and cross fighter.

If Marciano had taken up boxing earlier though, he would have gotten better at his style quicker. More so than almost all other champions, Marciano improved the most from his pro debut to his last fight. Marciano during his pro debut was embarassingly sloppy, had terrible balance, and threw wide ass looping punches. He wasn't even close to a world class fighter and most people thought he had no future in boxing above the club fighter circuit. It's only through sheer will, strength, and an awesome chin that he survived those early fights against better schooled opposition.

Charlie Goldman took the best of what the raw Marciano had to offer and refined it into an all time great fighter, and not boxer. Goldman was the very best person around at the time to be training Marciano and it was a match made in heaven.

Actually Marciano reached his physical peak around the Moore fight IMO (perhaps a bit before), but he still had much to learn when he retired. If he had started fighting when Ali did, at 12, honing his skills and refining his style from such a young age, he would have been an even greater fighter than he was. But unfortunately for boxing history, Marciano did not even have his first boxing lesson until he was in his early twenties. For some reason this is overlooked and ignored but it is quite important for understanding his poor showings (against an old Joe Louis he wasn't even close to his prime, he was very raw even then, and in the time span between the first and second fights with LaStarza, Roland remarked that Marciano had improved 100%, particulary his defense).

If Marciano had Ali's early start, he would have been much harder to hit, sharper and more accurate with his punches, would have had better footwork, and would have been a wiser fighter more adept at cutting off the ring. Anything who thinks otherwise is just a biased fool.

i was kind of getting tyson and rocky mixed up
let me rephrase Charlie Goldman was good trainer and the crouch is probably one of the best defensive styles ever IMO because you can go from defense to offense in an instant but Goldman's achilles heal is that he took the Boxers strength and worked on that instead of really teaching foot work or speed, i mean Rocky had the power and he worked around that which i love because Rocky's pure heart,stamina,power,and relentlessness are great and giving up speed and footwork is a small price to pay, but had Rocky later in his career had perfected the crotch, he could jab and convert quick, but had he had alittle bit better hand speed, and footwork it owuldn't have been bad, he still would've been flat footed most of them time to get his punches acrossed though

my friend once said that if marciano was trained by cus d'mato then Rocky would have been the best hw of all time, and that's actually sounds relatively accurate, but Goldman did do a good job with what he did.

Actually after rocky retired he was going to come back like the next month because the deal he made with his manager was that his manager would get 45% (or something like that but alot) of his earnings, also would be in charge of his (Rockys') money until the day he retired, Rocky saw near none of the money he should have seen. so thats just a little fact lol

but in the end i acutally agree with you near 100% with what you wrote
had he started earlier he would have been unstoppable lol or near it anyway cause no fighter is really unstoppable
K for you or pts what ever i can get first

[butterfly1964]

One thing you're wrong about RockMarcianofan is that Charlie Goldman was not a good trainer for Marciano. He was the BEST trainer Rocky could have asked for. He did not teach the Rock to take a punch, he taught him the crouch, how to shorten up his punches, fight inside, how to get inside, everything he needed. With his 67" reach there is no way he would have ever been successful as a long range jab and cross fighter.

If Marciano had taken up boxing earlier though, he would have gotten better at his style quicker. More so than almost all other champions, Marciano improved the most from his pro debut to his last fight. Marciano during his pro debut was embarassingly sloppy, had terrible balance, and threw wide ass looping punches. He wasn't even close to a world class fighter and most people thought he had no future in boxing above the club fighter circuit. It's only through sheer will, strength, and an awesome chin that he survived those early fights against better schooled opposition.

Charlie Goldman took the best of what the raw Marciano had to offer and refined it into an all time great fighter, and not boxer. Goldman was the very best person around at the time to be training Marciano and it was a match made in heaven.

Actually Marciano reached his physical peak around the Moore fight IMO (perhaps a bit before), but he still had much to learn when he retired. If he had started fighting when Ali did, at 12, honing his skills and refining his style from such a young age, he would have been an even greater fighter than he was. But unfortunately for boxing history, Marciano did not even have his first boxing lesson until he was in his early twenties. For some reason this is overlooked and ignored but it is quite important for understanding his poor showings (against an old Joe Louis he wasn't even close to his prime, he was very raw even then, and in the time span between the first and second fights with LaStarza, Roland remarked that Marciano had improved 100%, particulary his defense).

If Marciano had Ali's early start, he would have been much harder to hit, sharper and more accurate with his punches, would have had better footwork, and would have been a wiser fighter more adept at cutting off the ring. Anything who thinks otherwise is just a biased fool.

yes, this is true, because in clay's first amateur bouts he looked just like marciano!

[RockyMarcianofan00]

yes, this is true, because in clay's first amateur bouts he looked just like marciano!

ha ha i can't imagine muhammad ali sitting there toe to toe with someone swapping blows, i mean i only see him dancing and jabbing

[butterfly1964]

ha ha i can't imagine muhammad ali sitting there toe to toe with someone swapping blows, i mean i only see him dancing and jabbing

nah, i meant that he was clumsy and awkward like marciano.

[Kid Achilles]

I actually don't think D'Amato would have been a good trainer for Marciano. D'Amato as a trainer was nowhere near as experienced as Goldman IMO. He never had a single fight himself as far as I know. It was Rooney that did the real technical instructing. D'Amato (and this was his greatest strength as a trainer) just taught Tyson the fighter mentality and how to deal with fear which Marciano always knew.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

I actually don't think D'Amato would have been a good trainer for Marciano. D'Amato as a trainer was nowhere near as experienced as Goldman IMO. He never had a single fight himself as far as I know. It was Rooney that did the real technical instructing. D'Amato (and this was his greatest strength as a trainer) just taught Tyson the fighter mentality and how to deal with fear which Marciano always knew.

ahh see you learn something knew everyday

so this is what i'm getting from you
Cus D'mato was Tyson's legal guardian,motivator, and kept him on track, but rooney did the training that made tyson great. in that case Rooney would have been good.

but in a sense i changed my mind a bit, Goldman was probably the best trainer for Marciano if only he had given him a bit more speed cause his defense is actually better then most ppl give him credit for