Sugar Ray Robinson couldn't fight so often against current fighters

[M Bison]

Izzy Jannazzo holds wins over Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Bill McDowell, Jimmy Leto and draws with Ceferino Garcia and Williams again. That is better than anything Porter Thurman or Maidana will ever do. When they beat any all time great top ten fighter in a division like Holman Williams let me know.

That is completely disrespectful to our current generation of boxers, you're putting them onto a pedestal of you will never reach that height no matter what you do...

It is absolutely unfair and it is not the correct way to hold the past greats with respect, you can respect legends and have an objective opinion we're all allowed to have one.

[M Bison]

Jake Lamotta isn't a punching bag, If he is he is the first punching bag to ever hit back his opponent.
Bottom line is NO fighter is a punching bag they've got into the ring and displayed their art and yes OP is 100% wrong on that.

Lamotta is more known for his heart, toughness and willing to grind out a result, If I was ever to dare to compare him to someone It would be Carl Froch in mentality and the excellent chin he has on him.
Perhaps not the best technically but he will forever be known as the first man to beat a prime Sugar Ray Robinson and that is a huge pheat to be heralded.


I however agree that the level of opponents have gone up as time has went on, the welterweight division all the way to the super-middleweights those divisions are a lot more packed than they were from the times of Robinson was dominating.
This is the only reason I think fighting twice a week or even just a couple times a month would be a very demanding thing to do against the current top guys.

Sure I think Robinson would probably beat mostly everyone of today but its entirely subjective and I shouldn't be prosecuted/grilled for not saying I definitely think he would.


Nice to see one user has responded in a good manner oppose to just insulting the OP even though I didn't agree with everything he said I'm not going to call him an idiot/fool and whatever else that has been said.

[DARKSEID]

Starting the first fight with the punching bag jake lamotta he fought 46-26 izzy, 30-19 vic, 49-27 izzy again for a pointless the rematch, 49-11 and then got whooped against punching bag the lamotta hahahaha

I stopped reading right here.

[Elroy1]

That is completely disrespectful to our current generation of boxers, you're putting them onto a pedestal of you will never reach that height no matter what you do...

It is absolutely unfair and it is not the correct way to hold the past greats with respect, you can respect legends and have an objective opinion we're all allowed to have one.

Not in this section my friend, I know, this is a dark and dangerous place for us.

Absolutely no tolerance for an objective opinion on this board, I can see that.

What your saying is of course true. Nothing any fighter does today would ever be good enough.

I'd like to add, and hopefully find some sort of wide agreeance, that it is impossible for any boxer to have 100+ fights against "quality" opposition...

Surely we can agree just on that.

[Humean]

LaMotta had one of the best defences in middleweight history. I'm not sure if it is because of Raging Bull or simply the myths surrounding his great chin but the notion that LaMotta was a punching bag or that he was an unskilled brawler who came forward in straight lines and ate punches is wide of the mark. All you have to do is watch some of the fights that exist on film to see that he was actually very skilled.

You listed Jannazzo, Dellicurti and Nettlow's record going into their match-ups with Robinson prior to this. It's them you are referring to I believe. For me Izzy Jannazzo cannot be looked upon as a gatekeeper - whatever you're definition of the term is.

Jannazzo is a hard fighter to pin down in terms of his ability, he had a Fritzie Zivic-like up and down career. Jannazzo did manage the sort of wins that elevated him into the top 10 but when you look at the losses and who some of them were to it is hard to rate him as a top 10 fighter. Having said that quite a high portion of his losses were to top 10, or there about, fighters. I'd personally call him a domestic level fighter during his best years.

As for fighting contenders every two weeks, Robinson rarely did (or at least prior to his draft into army, as beyond knowledge dips.) My definition of contender is a top ten rated fighter. I would be impressed by anyone who had managed that fate though.

The period you actually are referring to saw Robinson meet LaMotta on the 5th of February, Jackie Wilson on the 19th and LaMotta again on the 26th. In a period of 21 days, Robinson fought arguably the greatest competition of his career.


I can't see your definition of journeyman being the correct category for Jackie Wilson. I would put the Wilson scalp right near the top of those Robinson had at that point.

You're probably right about California Jackie Wilson, he was a top 10 welterweight in his day and defeats to LaMotta and Robinson and perhaps more importantly the war stunted his career. He certainly cannot be described as a journeyman.

I do think that too many who love the older fighters do make out that they were fighting good or great fighters every couple of weeks or months but that was mostly not the case, although it sometimes was. Robinson fighting LaMotta twice and Wilson once in the space of 21 days is pretty remarkable but bear in mind that LaMotta was also fighting Robinson twice in that space and Wilson had fought LaMotta about one month prior to fighting Robinson. It is still all impressive though.

These older fighters fought so often then it is wise not to read too much into the odd individual defeat but also each individual win is less impressive by the same logic. The opponent defeated may not have been fully fit, may have been injured, badly motivated, had a bad style, or took a dive. Therefore older fighters are over-estimated when people start listing fighters that they defeated, as if they defeated the best version of those fighters each time.

Taking the Welterweight division, I'm not sure that it's more packed today than it was in the early 40's. We are just far more familiar with those who occupy it and have formed are own opinions from watching bouts, unlike the names from history.

Using The Ring Magazine for a comparison, is the current weight class, July 2014, better than say April 1942.

2014

Floyd Mayweather Jr
Manny Pacquiao
Tim Bradley
Juan Manuel Marquez
Shawn Porter
Kell Brook
Marcos Maidana
Keith Thurman
Roberto Guerrero
Amir Khan
Devon Alexander

1942

C - Freddie Cochrane

Ray Robinson
Jackie Wilson
Charley Burley
Cocoa Kid
Young Kid McCoy
Tony Motisi
Fritzie Zivic
Marty Servo
Holman Williams
Harry Teaney


Interested to hear others take on this.

You are right that the familiarity of today's fighter's can bias opinions to make them seem a whole lot better but some people are also always thinking things are getting worse, whether in boxing or in other aspects of life. They then romanticise the past and perhaps let nostalgia get the better of them. The mystery of particular fighters and their careers leaves room for imagination. Soon enough opinion is formed that someone like Harry Greb could do anything and everything better than anyone who came after him.

I'd definitely have the class of 2014 over 1942. Outside Robinson there are a few decent and good fighters there but I think that in a tournament between 1942 and 2014 then 2014 would win quite substantially. Such hypotheticals are unfair on the older fighters though, they did not have some of the advantages of modern fighters.

[soul_survivor]

Lol at some of the responses here

[just the facts]

Taking the Welterweight division, I'm not sure that it's more packed today than it was in the early 40's. We are just far more familiar with those who occupy it and have formed are own opinions from watching bouts, unlike the names from history.

Using The Ring Magazine for a comparison, is the current weight class, July 2014, better than say April 1942.

2014

Floyd Mayweather Jr
Manny Pacquiao
Tim Bradley
Juan Manuel Marquez
Shawn Porter
Kell Brook
Marcos Maidana
Keith Thurman
Roberto Guerrero
Amir Khan
Devon Alexander

1942

C - Freddie Cochrane

Ray Robinson
Jackie Wilson
Charley Burley
Cocoa Kid
Young Kid McCoy
Tony Motisi
Fritzie Zivic
Marty Servo
Holman Williams
Harry Teaney


Interested to hear others take on this.

excellent post. I wanna throw in that anyone who thinks LaMotta was just a punching bag has watched Raging Bull too many times

[Ray Corso]

The difference between then and now isn't IN the ring it's the way business was done!
There was NO ppv no closed circuit and no even TV you had to get your main percentage by putting butts in the seats. This was the era of LIVE boxing with the LIVE gate as the bank.
Often when contenders fought the opposing promoters had deals that the rematch could go back to the losers city and that was a huge part of the promotion. A New York City fighter fighting in Chicago and vice versa could develop into a great gate.
Back then you needed to be an action fighter or the seats would not be filled by your ticket sales. Robinson was a tremendous boxer who was untouchable in his welter days but out boxing people for 10 rds didn't work that well in a 15rd title fight against the top tier guys. He had to change his Methods & Techniques and mix in power punching with his speed and utilize his high volume punching to overwhelm his competitors. Action fighters did well then there were very few counter punchers and lateral movers had to step in and trade to an extent or they weren't used by the promoters.
Fighting 2 to 3 times a month once you were established was the way it was done then you took advantage of promoters wanting to bring you in as a huge support to a live show. Robinson needed to go support a show against a second and even third tier opponent because his management and promotion could broaden their connection with another area, again NO TV! You see the business was a totally different affair then.
Todays fighters activity is closer to the days prior to Jack Johnson when the champs fought once or twice a year. Their names were kept alive by newspaper sports writers who "embellished" the truths!!!

Now to this comparison list;
First off all the 2014 men are still active and their place in history can still be undecided.
Other than Pac and Floyd I doubt Khan, Marquez, Bradley, Guerrero, Alexander can stand next to the 1942 list! The book is still out on Brook, Thurman and Maidana with Juan and Robert having a handful of bouts at 47!
Robinson defeats all of the men on both lists, anyone who thinks he doesn't really needs a reality check. Charley Burley would also win over everyone on the 2014 and Holman can too! Zivic is easily one of the most under rated competitors in boxing, this guy was capable of unbelievable performances.
Servo could have some problems with Manny & Floyd.

Again I think its unfair to comment on Thurman, Brook, Porter and Marcos because their just starting their careers as headliners after getting through their early career tests! From what I see early on none are great fighters by technique but that doesn't mean they can't be in great fights and win.
I do believe fans get caught up in a fighter who can win a great fight and then is considered a great fighter. Hamsho and Antuofermo were in great fights along with Gatti but their not great fighters.
Lets have these young men get into their primes and then compare them to the Burleys and Cocoa Kids!!!

Lastly the comment about LaMotta is so ridiculous to me it pains me to even answer questions and insults from people who the old man (90 yrs) could STILL kick the crap out of but try to learn ok muffets.

To be a presser you must learn distance and that's learning steps that your opponent needs to take to get into his range to land on you and his escape from your punches. Here one of the methods that Jake used as well as any fighter in history used.
He would get into his opponents landing range and take some shots (while turning or pulling) to lessen the impact. This gave his opponent a positive feel about distance and range. Throughout a few rounds Jake would throw a right or left to get the opponent moving one way or the other and again feel good about his escape routes. All of a sudden the distance "closed" Jake gets under then comes over and the hand that wasn't used to afford the escape comes in to freeze the escape! LaMotta was a genius at setting traps and then before the opponent could adjust if he had that in him to begin with Jake would wear him down and take his conditioning away!
He is one of the few fighters in boxing history who was respected by fear!!!
One thing the movie got right was that this guy was a ****ing animal who set traps and destroyed men without having devastating one punch power!
There's a reason he is listed as a top ten Middleweight of all time because it's on film to see and he proves it every year.

......and once again a few green posters here can't rewrite boxing history. The "modern era" in boxing began in 1932, that's when the styles from 1888 up to 1920 changed. J. Johnson was the beginning of the stand up stiff punches guy beginning to use lateral moves and work combinations off jabs.
When Dempsey met Tunney that was the beginning of the slugger vs boxer and Tunney and Louis brought in the new era that was supported by the greatest boxers ever.
So if you want to talk about todays fighter "current" is always a good description ot make up something to your liking but "Modern" describes a style that's still in use and it goes back to the early 30's!

Finally;...Referring to Ali & Frazier and others who are the crest of boxings talents and personalities in a degrading and totally disrespectful way is a sure way to have people get pissed off and respond and that's how a thread is developed in the "Modern Era" of forums. To me it's cheap sensationalism and lies and when you degrade and violate
the best that a sport has to offer you become a troll and a pest who in reality is putting themselves on display for ridicule. Having to stoop so low just to get some attention even if it's negative is pretty sad to me.
Sounds like joining a boxing gym just might build some character that's obviously lacking in a few of the "new kids"! You know the "modern ones"!
Ray Corso

[greynotsoold]

The difference between then and now isn't IN the ring it's the way business was done!
There was NO ppv no closed circuit and no even TV you had to get your main percentage by putting butts in the seats. This was the era of LIVE boxing with the LIVE gate as the bank.
Often when contenders fought the opposing promoters had deals that the rematch could go back to the losers city and that was a huge part of the promotion. A New York City fighter fighting in Chicago and vice versa could develop into a great gate.
Back then you needed to be an action fighter or the seats would not be filled by your ticket sales. Robinson was a tremendous boxer who was untouchable in his welter days but out boxing people for 10 rds didn't work that well in a 15rd title fight against the top tier guys. He had to change his Methods & Techniques and mix in power punching with his speed and utilize his high volume punching to overwhelm his competitors. Action fighters did well then there were very few counter punchers and lateral movers had to step in and trade to an extent or they weren't used by the promoters.
Fighting 2 to 3 times a month once you were established was the way it was done then you took advantage of promoters wanting to bring you in as a huge support to a live show. Robinson needed to go support a show against a second and even third tier opponent because his management and promotion could broaden their connection with another area, again NO TV! You see the business was a totally different affair then.
Todays fighters activity is closer to the days prior to Jack Johnson when the champs fought once or twice a year. Their names were kept alive by newspaper sports writers who "embellished" the truths!!!

Now to this comparison list;
First off all the 2014 men are still active and their place in history can still be undecided.
Other than Pac and Floyd I doubt Khan, Marquez, Bradley, Guerrero, Alexander can stand next to the 1942 list! The book is still out on Brook, Thurman and Maidana with Juan and Robert having a handful of bouts at 47!
Robinson defeats all of the men on both lists, anyone who thinks he doesn't really needs a reality check. Charley Burley would also win over everyone on the 2014 and Holman can too! Zivic is easily one of the most under rated competitors in boxing, this guy was capable of unbelievable performances.
Servo could have some problems with Manny & Floyd.

Again I think its unfair to comment on Thurman, Brook, Porter and Marcos because their just starting their careers as headliners after getting through their early career tests! From what I see early on none are great fighters by technique but that doesn't mean they can't be in great fights and win.
I do believe fans get caught up in a fighter who can win a great fight and then is considered a great fighter. Hamsho and Antuofermo were in great fights along with Gatti but their not great fighters.
Lets have these young men get into their primes and then compare them to the Burleys and Cocoa Kids!!!

Lastly the comment about LaMotta is so ridiculous to me it pains me to even answer questions and insults from people who the old man (90 yrs) could STILL kick the crap out of but try to learn ok muffets.

To be a presser you must learn distance and that's learning steps that your opponent needs to take to get into his range to land on you and his escape from your punches. Here one of the methods that Jake used as well as any fighter in history used.
He would get into his opponents landing range and take some shots (while turning or pulling) to lessen the impact. This gave his opponent a positive feel about distance and range. Throughout a few rounds Jake would throw a right or left to get the opponent moving one way or the other and again feel good about his escape routes. All of a sudden the distance "closed" Jake gets under then comes over and the hand that wasn't used to afford the escape comes in to freeze the escape! LaMotta was a genius at setting traps and then before the opponent could adjust if he had that in him to begin with Jake would wear him down and take his conditioning away!
He is one of the few fighters in boxing history who was respected by fear!!!
One thing the movie got right was that this guy was a ****ing animal who set traps and destroyed men without having devastating one punch power!
There's a reason he is listed as a top ten Middleweight of all time because it's on film to see and he proves it every year.

......and once again a few green posters here can't rewrite boxing history. The "modern era" in boxing began in 1932, that's when the styles from 1888 up to 1920 changed. J. Johnson was the beginning of the stand up stiff punches guy beginning to use lateral moves and work combinations off jabs.
When Dempsey met Tunney that was the beginning of the slugger vs boxer and Tunney and Louis brought in the new era that was supported by the greatest boxers ever.
So if you want to talk about todays fighter "current" is always a good description ot make up something to your liking but "Modern" describes a style that's still in use and it goes back to the early 30's!

Finally;...Referring to Ali & Frazier and others who are the crest of boxings talents and personalities in a degrading and totally disrespectful way is a sure way to have people get pissed off and respond and that's how a thread is developed in the "Modern Era" of forums. To me it's cheap sensationalism and lies and when you degrade and violate
the best that a sport has to offer you become a troll and a pest who in reality is putting themselves on display for ridicule. Having to stoop so low just to get some attention even if it's negative is pretty sad to me.
Sounds like joining a boxing gym just might build some character that's obviously lacking in a few of the "new kids"! You know the "modern ones"!
Ray Corso

Good stuff, Ray.

[M Bison]

The difference between then and now isn't IN the ring it's the way business was done!
There was NO ppv no closed circuit and no even TV you had to get your main percentage by putting butts in the seats. This was the era of LIVE boxing with the LIVE gate as the bank.
Often when contenders fought the opposing promoters had deals that the rematch could go back to the losers city and that was a huge part of the promotion. A New York City fighter fighting in Chicago and vice versa could develop into a great gate.
Back then you needed to be an action fighter or the seats would not be filled by your ticket sales. Robinson was a tremendous boxer who was untouchable in his welter days but out boxing people for 10 rds didn't work that well in a 15rd title fight against the top tier guys. He had to change his Methods & Techniques and mix in power punching with his speed and utilize his high volume punching to overwhelm his competitors. Action fighters did well then there were very few counter punchers and lateral movers had to step in and trade to an extent or they weren't used by the promoters.
Fighting 2 to 3 times a month once you were established was the way it was done then you took advantage of promoters wanting to bring you in as a huge support to a live show. Robinson needed to go support a show against a second and even third tier opponent because his management and promotion could broaden their connection with another area, again NO TV! You see the business was a totally different affair then.
Todays fighters activity is closer to the days prior to Jack Johnson when the champs fought once or twice a year. Their names were kept alive by newspaper sports writers who "embellished" the truths!!!

Now to this comparison list;
First off all the 2014 men are still active and their place in history can still be undecided.
Other than Pac and Floyd I doubt Khan, Marquez, Bradley, Guerrero, Alexander can stand next to the 1942 list! The book is still out on Brook, Thurman and Maidana with Juan and Robert having a handful of bouts at 47!
Robinson defeats all of the men on both lists, anyone who thinks he doesn't really needs a reality check. Charley Burley would also win over everyone on the 2014 and Holman can too! Zivic is easily one of the most under rated competitors in boxing, this guy was capable of unbelievable performances.
Servo could have some problems with Manny & Floyd.

Again I think its unfair to comment on Thurman, Brook, Porter and Marcos because their just starting their careers as headliners after getting through their early career tests! From what I see early on none are great fighters by technique but that doesn't mean they can't be in great fights and win.
I do believe fans get caught up in a fighter who can win a great fight and then is considered a great fighter. Hamsho and Antuofermo were in great fights along with Gatti but their not great fighters.
Lets have these young men get into their primes and then compare them to the Burleys and Cocoa Kids!!!

Lastly the comment about LaMotta is so ridiculous to me it pains me to even answer questions and insults from people who the old man (90 yrs) could STILL kick the crap out of but try to learn ok muffets.

To be a presser you must learn distance and that's learning steps that your opponent needs to take to get into his range to land on you and his escape from your punches. Here one of the methods that Jake used as well as any fighter in history used.
He would get into his opponents landing range and take some shots (while turning or pulling) to lessen the impact. This gave his opponent a positive feel about distance and range. Throughout a few rounds Jake would throw a right or left to get the opponent moving one way or the other and again feel good about his escape routes. All of a sudden the distance "closed" Jake gets under then comes over and the hand that wasn't used to afford the escape comes in to freeze the escape! LaMotta was a genius at setting traps and then before the opponent could adjust if he had that in him to begin with Jake would wear him down and take his conditioning away!
He is one of the few fighters in boxing history who was respected by fear!!!
One thing the movie got right was that this guy was a ****ing animal who set traps and destroyed men without having devastating one punch power!
There's a reason he is listed as a top ten Middleweight of all time because it's on film to see and he proves it every year.

......and once again a few green posters here can't rewrite boxing history. The "modern era" in boxing began in 1932, that's when the styles from 1888 up to 1920 changed. J. Johnson was the beginning of the stand up stiff punches guy beginning to use lateral moves and work combinations off jabs.
When Dempsey met Tunney that was the beginning of the slugger vs boxer and Tunney and Louis brought in the new era that was supported by the greatest boxers ever.
So if you want to talk about todays fighter "current" is always a good description ot make up something to your liking but "Modern" describes a style that's still in use and it goes back to the early 30's!

Finally;...Referring to Ali & Frazier and others who are the crest of boxings talents and personalities in a degrading and totally disrespectful way is a sure way to have people get pissed off and respond and that's how a thread is developed in the "Modern Era" of forums. To me it's cheap sensationalism and lies and when you degrade and violate
the best that a sport has to offer you become a troll and a pest who in reality is putting themselves on display for ridicule. Having to stoop so low just to get some attention even if it's negative is pretty sad to me.
Sounds like joining a boxing gym just might build some character that's obviously lacking in a few of the "new kids"! You know the "modern ones"!
Ray Corso

I do agree that you probably did need to be a more aggressive fighter back then but do you think that would of possibly been a defining factor of the way Charley Burley or Ray Robinson fought I.E. could they of made the fight a lot more easier on themselves?

I definitely think Khan put into the 1942 era he'd be ****ed well and truly, however I think a man of Bradley and Guerrero's stature would suit that era fine they are both hard fighting big hearted fighter who can push against the grain.
I also agree Charley Burleys and Ray Robinson ring craftiness would take those guys to school.

To state to my earlier comment I definitely don't think Lamotta is a punching bag regardless of our past comments.


I think regardless of either Ali and Frazier who I respect regardless of what I've said It is only fair to treat every fighter in the same attitude, whereas some fans show fighters with absolute disregard and disrespect it can provoke a reaction oppose to something that someone truly means.

I enjoyed the read up it is very insightful regardless of our past spat.