Prime Ali vs Prime Marciano: Who wins?

[billeau2]

True but Marciano was technically superior than Frazier and had KO power in both fists. Rocky was always parrying, blocking, ducking, rolling, leaning out and in, feinting. Much more versatile than Frazier.

There is good tape on Youtube showing Marciano carefully so to speak. Another way to look at it: Goldman did not just decide," well I need a handsome 6 foot graceful man, light on his feet...Oh that small squat beast with two left feet will do never mind."

Goldman taught taught Marciano how to be a certain type of fighter...Marciano was a skilled catcher in baseball, very good actually so he had some sense of how to perform athletically. You can see in tape of Rocky how he parries, moves his feet just so, and sets up his shots. And like Armstrong you can see how he trained to always always throw punches in bunches.

I think Frazier was excellent, one of my favorites, I just thing that Marciano was a very rare bird. I always post tape of Marciano here but I get the feeling that people have made their minds up... Its easy to find on Youtube.

[QueensburyRules]

--- Rock seems to have had enough HS catching credentials to earn an abbreviated tryout with the 1947 Chicago Cubs at their North Carolina spring training camp.

Thing is he had been stationed in England during the WW2, and by the time of his decommission, was already the Army heavywt champ, meaning his baseball was rusty.

Any views on why some in the boxing media insist on soiling themselves by claiming a half dozen of his early fights were staged against his brother?

[HOUDINI563]

Frazier lacked coordination in his right hand. It just not a weapon against top opposition. Frazier only real recourse was to throw that right to the body where it’s need for coordination was minimal. Frazier was the only hwt champion never to knock any opponent down or out with his right hand.

[LoadedWraps]

There is good tape on Youtube showing Marciano carefully so to speak. Another way to look at it: Goldman did not just decide," well I need a handsome 6 foot graceful man, light on his feet...Oh that small squat beast with two left feet will do never mind."

Goldman taught taught Marciano how to be a certain type of fighter...Marciano was a skilled catcher in baseball, very good actually so he had some sense of how to perform athletically. You can see in tape of Rocky how he parries, moves his feet just so, and sets up his shots. And like Armstrong you can see how he trained to always always throw punches in bunches.

I think Frazier was excellent, one of my favorites, I just thing that Marciano was a very rare bird. I always post tape of Marciano here but I get the feeling that people have made their minds up... Its easy to find on Youtube.

It's easy to find perhaps, but you still need the "eyes" to recognize the subtle things in boxing. Boxing, the deeper we get, becomes more about the nuances that are not easily recognized unless you have been around the game for a while.

Marciano was extremely intelligent in the ring and he had a very underrated defense, and there are these myths that if you bleed a lot / get cut a lot you aren't a good defender, and if you are a come forward fighter you aren't a good defender. Neither are true. And the point of training to throw in bunches is a great one. This is something I've trained for, a huge inspiration of mine in the gym is Margarito, not so much stylistically, I fight out of a philly shell, but his dedication to conditioning, and activity in the ring is something I strive to match. I want to be able to let off an assault of punches at any given moment in the round, not have some threshold of activity where I can throw myself out and be vulnerable. Resting is for in between rounds. If I don't have the ability to unload on you for 3 mins, I don't need to be fighting. When I train, I try and throw as many good form punches in a round as possible.

I think two great recent examples of fighters who look somewhat crude on the surface but are actually high ring IQ fighters with the ability to box well, are Maidana and Golovkin. Be weary of any person who labels these two come forward sluggers who block punches with faces. They are so much more than that, those are cats to be educated, not to be argued with.

[HOUDINI563]

Regarding Frazier’s weight. It’s a meaningless point in reality in terms of heavyweights. However Joe in his prime at best was a 205 pound heavyweight. Post Ali 1 you no longer have Joe in his prime. Prime weight for Frazier was approximately 203-205 pounds.

[HOUDINI563]

Rocky would wing his shots with both hands but his skills to defend and get into position to punch were extremely good for a swarming type fighter. The detailed video highlighting his skills in on YOUTUBE and I would suggest all that are interested in understanding Marciano’s abilities take time to watch it.

[billeau2]

It's easy to find perhaps, but you still need the "eyes" to recognize the subtle things in boxing. Boxing, the deeper we get, becomes more about the nuances that are not easily recognized unless you have been around the game for a while.

Marciano was extremely intelligent in the ring and he had a very underrated defense, and there are these myths that if you bleed a lot / get cut a lot you aren't a good defender, and if you are a come forward fighter you aren't a good defender. Neither are true. And the point of training to throw in bunches is a great one. This is something I've trained for, a huge inspiration of mine in the gym is Margarito, not so much stylistically, I fight out of a philly shell, but his dedication to conditioning, and activity in the ring is something I strive to match. I want to be able to let off an assault of punches at any given moment in the round, not have some threshold of activity where I can throw myself out and be vulnerable. Resting is for in between rounds. If I don't have the ability to unload on you for 3 mins, I don't need to be fighting. When I train, I try and throw as many good form punches in a round as possible.

I think two great recent examples of fighters who look somewhat crude on the surface but are actually high ring IQ fighters with the ability to box well, are Maidana and Golovkin. Be weary of any person who labels these two come forward sluggers who block punches with faces. They are so much more than that, those are cats to be educated, not to be argued with.

Your point about the punches is one that drives me nuts frankly I mean... You have established intervals, so train to do the most punching you can. I don't get why anyone would not train to throw as much as possible. Certainly that was the standard in classical fighting times.

You have coaches, like Bill Parcels in football, who literally would try to control every second of the clock with his offense under the theory that this control would give him maximum opportunity and limit the opposition. It can certainly be thought of as a time management issue.

Agreed on Marciano and the other two.

[club fighter]

If it was the Ali that fought Frazier 3 times I think Rocky could have given him a lot of trouble and might have been able to do what Smoking Joe did in their first fight. That type of fighter is a good matchup against Ali's style at the time, and although Rocky didn't have the work rate Frazier had, he had a better right and better footwork.

If it was the Ali that took out Liston? ....... I don't see anybody beating that speed, and speed beats power every time.

[HOUDINI563]

I don’t see Prime Marciano besting prime Ali. I do see him giving Ali a hell of a fight.

[ShoulderRoll]

Regarding Frazier’s weight. It’s a meaningless point in reality in terms of heavyweights. However Joe in his prime at best was a 205 pound heavyweight. Post Ali 1 you no longer have Joe in his prime. Prime weight for Frazier was approximately 203-205 pounds.

As regards to Marciano vs Frazier weight actually is meaningful. You have one guy who was never lighter than 203 lbs against a guy whose best fighting weight was 185 lbs.

A good big man almost always beats a good smaller man. Advantage Frazier.

There are videos on YouTube showing Marciano's skills but that alone doesn't mean anything...there are also videos showing Smokin' Joe's technical abilities as well. Defensively he was better than Rocky, becoming very difficult to hit clean under Eddie Futch's tutelage.