My rankings

[Welsh Jon]

I am putting together my "greatest ever" lists for each division. I have done/will do a top 20 list for each of the original divisions and a top 10 for the "junior" divisions. I plan to post them all on this forum eventually (except for Super-Middleweight and Cruiserweight cos I don't see the point). Feel free to critise, give feed-back, post your own rankings or completely ignore as you feel appropriate!

I will start with my middleweight list and then add the rest over time.

[Welsh Jon]

Middleweight top 20

1. Carlos Monzon, Argentina
2. Harry Greb, USA
3. Sugar Ray Robinson, USA
4. Marvin Hagler, USA
5. Bob Fitzsimmons, New Zealand/UK
6. Jake Lamotta, USA
7. Mickey Walker, USA
8. Charley Burley, USA
9. Bernard Hopkins, USA
10.**** Tiger, Nigeria
11.Stanley Ketchel, USA
12.Marcel Cerdan, France/Algeria
13.Freddie Steele, USA
14.Billy Conn, USA
15.Tiger Flowers, USA
16.Les Darcy, Australia
17.Tony Zale, USA
18.Mike Gibbons, USA
19.Sam Langford, Canada
20.Emile Griffith, USVI

[Humean]

What is your criteria?

What did Burley do at middleweight to justify being 8th?

Conn and Steele but not Thil?

You have Tiger at 10 and Griffith at 20 but no Benvenuti or Fullmer?

Rodrigo Valdez?

Also what about the string of fantastic middleweights that came on the scene at the end of the 80s and early 90s such as Sumbu Kalambay, McCallum, Nunn, Toney, Jones jr etc?

[Welsh Jon]

What is your criteria?

What did Burley do at middleweight to justify being 8th?

Conn and Steele but not Thil?

You have Tiger at 10 and Griffith at 20 but no Benvenuti or Fullmer?

Rodrigo Valdez?

Also what about the string of fantastic middleweights that came on the scene at the end of the 80s and early 90s such as Sumbu Kalambay, McCallum, Nunn, Toney, Jones jr etc?

Main basis for the rankings is boxing resume.

Burley dominated an ATG in Archie Moore at middleweight, plus had wins over the likes of Holmann Williams and Bert Lytell. He was the top ranked middleweight in the world in a very tough era.

Some of the other middleweights you mentioned I would have loved to put in, but the thing about top 20 lists is there is only room for 20 names...

[Humean]

Main basis for the rankings is boxing resume.

Burley dominated an ATG in Archie Moore at middleweight, plus had wins over the likes of Holmann Williams and Bert Lytell. He was the top ranked middleweight in the world in a very tough era.

Some of the other middleweights you mentioned I would have loved to put in, but the thing about top 20 lists is there is only room for 20 names...

I'm curious why you choose the ones you did over the ones I mentioned that you didn't. What does "resume" mean, quality of opponents defeated minus defeats or what? Is **** Tiger's resume so much better than Benvenuti's or Fullmer's that he is in 10th and they are outside the top 20?

Burley was not the only fighter to defeat Moore at middleweight, Billy Adams, Johnny Romero, Teddy Yarosz, Shorty Hogue x 2, Jack Chase, Aaron Wade, Eddie Booker also did so.

Notable wins/losses/draws of Burley at middleweight:

Wins
Billy Soose, Holman Williams x 2, Jack Chase x 3, Archie Moore, Bert Lytell

Losses
Holman Williams x 3, Lytell, Marshall, Ezzard Charles x 2, Bivins

Draws
Cocoa Kid, Abrams

It should be noted how green both Charles and Bivins were at the time of their defeating Burley. So this is all worthy of 8th greatest middleweight of all time?

[IronDanHamza]

Very good list.

Only one I disagree with is Ketchel.

The rest are all solid picks.

[Welsh Jon]

I'm curious why you choose the ones you did over the ones I mentioned that you didn't. What does "resume" mean, quality of opponents defeated minus defeats or what? Is **** Tiger's resume so much better than Benvenuti's or Fullmer's that he is in 10th and they are outside the top 20?

Burley was not the only fighter to defeat Moore at middleweight, Billy Adams, Johnny Romero, Teddy Yarosz, Shorty Hogue x 2, Jack Chase, Aaron Wade, Eddie Booker also did so.

Notable wins/losses/draws of Burley at middleweight:

Wins
Billy Soose, Holman Williams x 2, Jack Chase x 3, Archie Moore, Bert Lytell

Losses
Holman Williams x 3, Lytell, Marshall, Ezzard Charles x 2, Bivins

Draws
Cocoa Kid, Abrams

It should be noted how green both Charles and Bivins were at the time of their defeating Burley. So this is all worthy of 8th greatest middleweight of all time?

Ezzard Charles wasn't green when he fought Burley. Not at his peak yet, but certainly not green, look at some of the guys he'd already fought. Bivins fair enough. Charles, Bivins, Moore and Marshal are all elite light heavyweights, can you really gonna hold it against Burley he only one won of his fights against 4 of the best light heavyweights there have ever been?

[Scott9945]

Very good list.

Only one I disagree with is Ketchel.

The rest are all solid picks.

Do you think Ketchel should be higher or lower?

[Ray Corso]

Bernard Hopkins in the top ten is ridiculous to me, he doesn't make my top twenty! He would struggle to keep the great pressure guys off him and any of the high work rate men would wear him down over 15 rounds! He simply is geared to be a current successful boxer his style would be exposed against real fighters!
Sugar Ray Robinson is the best fighter ever in boxing and as a welter & middle reigns supreme over any others! His record states that clearly as a middleweight he fought in top shape and in his declining years still beat the contenders to not have rated number one from 147 to 160 is blindness!
Ray.

[Welsh Jon]

Bernard Hopkins in the top ten is ridiculous to me, he doesn't make my top twenty! He would struggle to keep the great pressure guys off him and any of the high work rate men would wear him down over 15 rounds! He simply is geared to be a current successful boxer his style would be exposed against real fighters!
Sugar Ray Robinson is the best fighter ever in boxing and as a welter & middle reigns supreme over any others! His record states that clearly as a middleweight he fought in top shape and in his declining years still beat the contenders to not have rated number one from 147 to 160 is blindness!
Ray.

Robinson started to go into decline in about 1951. The vast majority of his middleweight career was a sub-prime SRR. Sub-prime SRR was still pretty awesome, but was he really the greatest middleweight ever?

I have Robinson ranked 1 at welter, 3 at middleweight at number 1 p4p. I don't think I'm selling him short.