How many titles would robinson won today ?

[mickey malone]

Try to compare "talent" not recorded fights! Who today works in combination like Sugarman? No one! Who has power in both hands and can deliver all the punches like him? No one! Who has the balance and hand and foot speed like him? No one!
As for weight classes I see no one in todays climate at 168 to 175 that would be a no brainer winner over him. Fellows like Ward or Stevenson simply have no experiences dealing with the greatest fighter of all time. Hell they've never even fought a great fighter!
Refering to Robinson only as a welter is ridiculous he fought 10 years at middleweight and defeated the best in the world. When he lost a fight in his latter years he's come back to the opponent and beat him usually by tko!
Keep in mind that Sugar was 5'11" and held 160 perfectly!

I like GGG because he comes to win but honestly I doubt he'd hit Sugar if he didn't want him to! GGG is the taylored made opponent for Robinson. someone who moves forward jabbing is going to get hurt! Robinson would be dropping off to his right off GGG jab and bringing right upper cuts in! When GGG tries his step over to the right to throw his body hook, no one would be there!
Its simply miles & miles of experience differences. GGG fought so many Euro styled amatuers who had no flow to their movement and were one dimentional forms. The era's were so different as to avalibilty of different opponents. One week Robinson could be in with a Basillo then met a Gavalin!
Whose GGG boxing? All second and third tier talents, no great fighters! Hell there are none! hahaha!!! Did anyone watch Froch & Groves? Is someone telling me those guys are "great"? They both looked like Rocky Gratizano who style wise was one of the "worst" ever! Left hand down, dragging their back legg and leading with their chins. Groves moves in and continues and Froch stands up into right hands!!! Come on these guys are horrible! Their club fighters but today their contenders? Really? Tell me what does that make someone like Sugar Ray Robinson? .......the Greatest Greatest of all time HA!
Ray Corso

Monumental post

Thanks Ray!

[Humean]

SRR had 200 pro fights.. At least 100 were against fighters with winning records.. I say, 'at least' when it should be 'more than' because he fought some of his opponents on more than one occasion. Ray went in with 16 world champions that I know of.. The distance in experience, is simply light-years, when you look at the current resumes of todays fighters .Hence the term, 'Novices' which is what they are, novice professional fighters..
We're in a deluded era, if guys with less than 30 pro fights who hav'nt even been tested, are considered, remotely near to Robinson's level.. Way too early in their fledgling careers for absurd comparisons to be made.

Your reasoning really precludes the possibility (unless there is a drastic change in the economcs of the sport and thus precipitates a return back to an older model) of any modern fighter from being considered comparable with Robinson or perhaps any of the other great fighters from that era. Yet that rejection is not about talent and skill, it is about economics. I don't see that all the journeymen that Robinson fought and beat amounts to much, neither on its own, nor compared to the more extensive amateur backgrounds of some modern fighters such as Golovkin and Rigondeaux. Therefore to think that Golovkin or Rigondeaux are somehow novices compared to Robinson really holds no water unless what you are saying is that basically every fighter (maybe the odd exception) fails to compare to Robinson because he did obviously have a quite extraordinary career. If Robinson was around today he'd be every bit as impressive, a high number of those professional journeymen he faced would either no longer be on his record, or they were take the form of amateur bouts, but all the really meaningful fights would remain. It is the latter that is really impressive.

[Humean]

Try to compare "talent" not recorded fights! Who today works in combination like Sugarman? No one! Who has power in both hands and can deliver all the punches like him? No one! Who has the balance and hand and foot speed like him? No one!
As for weight classes I see no one in todays climate at 168 to 175 that would be a no brainer winner over him. Fellows like Ward or Stevenson simply have no experiences dealing with the greatest fighter of all time. Hell they've never even fought a great fighter!
Refering to Robinson only as a welter is ridiculous he fought 10 years at middleweight and defeated the best in the world. When he lost a fight in his latter years he's come back to the opponent and beat him usually by tko!
Keep in mind that Sugar was 5'11" and held 160 perfectly!

I like GGG because he comes to win but honestly I doubt he'd hit Sugar if he didn't want him to! GGG is the taylored made opponent for Robinson. someone who moves forward jabbing is going to get hurt! Robinson would be dropping off to his right off GGG jab and bringing right upper cuts in! When GGG tries his step over to the right to throw his body hook, no one would be there!
Its simply miles & miles of experience differences. GGG fought so many Euro styled amatuers who had no flow to their movement and were one dimentional forms. The era's were so different as to avalibilty of different opponents. One week Robinson could be in with a Basillo then met a Gavalin!
Whose GGG boxing? All second and third tier talents, no great fighters! Hell there are none! hahaha!!! Did anyone watch Froch & Groves? Is someone telling me those guys are "great"? They both looked like Rocky Gratizano who style wise was one of the "worst" ever! Left hand down, dragging their back legg and leading with their chins. Groves moves in and continues and Froch stands up into right hands!!! Come on these guys are horrible! Their club fighters but today their contenders? Really? Tell me what does that make someone like Sugar Ray Robinson? .......the Greatest Greatest of all time HA!
Ray Corso

1: Robinson was great, the greatest, but he wasn't a god, didn't Graziano drop him at middleweight (ok more a balance punch) but do you really think Graziano is better than Golovkin? Robinson's defence was far from impenetrable.

2: Even putting aside this tired stereotype of stiff European fighters and that Kazakhstan is in Asia (or are Kazakh's Euro styled?), Golovkin's amateur background was international, he fought in the world championships and the Olympics.

3: The point was that it is misleading to take the view that Golovkin or Rigondeaux are not very experienced because they have so few professional fights compared to someone like Robinson. I doubt anyone could or would argue that Golovkin and Rigondeaux have faced as high a number of high quality fighters as Robinson.

4: You'll hear no argument from me against the idea that Froch has major technical deficiencies but surely your comparison with Graziano undermines your own point. Graziano was at one point the middleweight champion of the world. By your logic shouldn't Graziano be considered a club fighter? If that is your view then perhaps things haven't changed much.

[Cardinal Buck]

I'm not really buying that a fighter with 200 pro fights has a comparatively higher skill level than a guy with 50 or so. At a certain point on the world level, guys max out in terms of skill. I do not believe that Mayweather or Hopkins would be significantly more skilled with 200 pro fights, and two fights a year with extended training camps seems to be enough for them to stay sharp. It isn't a linear relationship.

With that said, I think there is definitely something unteachable to be gained by fighters with serious amateur careers in their teens-early twenties, though.

[billeau2]

1: Robinson was great, the greatest, but he wasn't a god, didn't Graziano drop him at middleweight (ok more a balance punch) but do you really think Graziano is better than Golovkin? Robinson's defence was far from impenetrable.

2: Even putting aside this tired stereotype of stiff European fighters and that Kazakhstan is in Asia (or are Kazakh's Euro styled?), Golovkin's amateur background was international, he fought in the world championships and the Olympics.

3: The point was that it is misleading to take the view that Golovkin or Rigondeaux are not very experienced because they have so few professional fights compared to someone like Robinson. I doubt anyone could or would argue that Golovkin and Rigondeaux have faced as high a number of high quality fighters as Robinson.

4: You'll hear no argument from me against the idea that Froch has major technical deficiencies but surely your comparison with Graziano undermines your own point. Graziano was at one point the middleweight champion of the world. By your logic shouldn't Graziano be considered a club fighter? If that is your view then perhaps things haven't changed much.

Well....one can say for a fact (see bold) you are wrong. I will start a thread apologizing to you for everything you list....if 75% of the people here think that Golovkin and Rigondeaux have faced as many high quality fighters as Robinson has fought. I actually think even Zippy the pinhead Buckaroo would not agree with this notion you have about quality.

What you are arguing about amateur fighting also has caveats. For example, yes there were times when amateur/Olympic circuit(s) were very good...The Cuban program in the 60's and 70's for example. But these programs have never been consistant in quality. Olympic training when boxing was strong means a lot...but in weaker years? I will not argue about the programs Rigon and Golovkin were involved in, suffice to say professional=consistant at a certain level.

As much as I like my Cuban fighters (especially T Stephson!) I would have to concede that, despite the strength of the Cuban style and coaching....There would have to be adjustments made.


Edit: I assume you meant to say that there was commensurate skill with the quality of fighters faced by G and R ccompared to Robinson...If this is not what you are saying I apologize.

[Humean]

Well....one can say for a fact (see bold) you are wrong. I will start a thread apologizing to you for everything you list....if 75% of the people here think that Golovkin and Rigondeaux have faced as many high quality fighters as Robinson has fought. I actually think even Zippy the pinhead Buckaroo would not agree with this notion you have about quality.

What you are arguing about amateur fighting also has caveats. For example, yes there were times when amateur/Olympic circuit(s) were very good...The Cuban program in the 60's and 70's for example. But these programs have never been consistant in quality. Olympic training when boxing was strong means a lot...but in weaker years? I will not argue about the programs Rigon and Golovkin were involved in, suffice to say professional=consistant at a certain level.

As much as I like my Cuban fighters (especially T Stephson!) I would have to concede that, despite the strength of the Cuban style and coaching....There would have to be adjustments made.


Edit: I assume you meant to say that there was commensurate skill with the quality of fighters faced by G and R ccompared to Robinson...If this is not what you are saying I apologize.

I was saying that Robinson certainly fought more high quality opponents than either Golovkin and Rigondeaux. However I was also saying that it wasn't nearly as high as Robinson's professional record would suggest because a large portion of his fights were against journeymen. Therefore in terms of experience both Golovkin and Rigondeaux's large number of amateur fights plus their professional careers amount to a lot more compared to Robinson that has been suggested. In short Golovkin and Rigondeaux are very experienced, what shortcomings they may or may not have are not primarily down to a lack of experience.