Larry Homes better than Ali? Should Holmes be GOAT?

[spam]

Tommo the first time Holmes called Foreman out is when they were pushing 50. The fight fell through and Holmes kept trying to get Foreman to come out of retirement. Foreman tried to get a 26 or 27 year old Holmes to fight him got ducked. Fought Jimmy Young who he didn't respect lost and retired. Now apparently Foreman ducked Holmes because Holmes would of beat him. Hilarious.

[Tommo1]

I didn't know that. If Holmes was in his 26th/27th year and declined Foreman pre-retirement as you say then I guess it is what it is.

I would rate Holmes higher than Foreman a little later but there is considerable doubt as to whether Holmes could have dealt with Foreman at this time, true!

[spam]

You would rate Holmes higher because of what? Because he beat a washed up Ali and Norton? Or because he or Don King hand picked his opponents so he could keep the title longer. Every person Holmes beat in his title defenses Foreman would beat. Foreman won his title from a undefeated champion Frazier who would of beat Holmes and lost it too a hall of famer Ali who would of beat Holmes in his prime.

[Tommo1]

From the get go I consider Foreman and Holmes pretty even competitively on the whole and fair equivalent in resume.

Truth is, Foreman's first career consists of a pretty weak resume, weaker in fact than Holmes 48 win streak worth of opponents.

Considering Ali, Holmes won, Foreman didn't but that's not really fair so we'll spare that one of course.

I don't rate Frazier at all I think if one has to use Frazier as any sort of argument for greatness it's a big epic fail. I would not consider Holmes in my top 10 if he would lose to that calibre of opponent.

Foreman's battle with Ron Lyle was a great fight though and his best win of the era imo. A big, tough opponent with a hard punch!

Holmes has good wins though, I don't rate Shavers either but he's atleast as dangerous as Frazier. Cooney is a big, durable hard puncher like Lyle, Witherspoon and Smith are solid opponents, Berbick was a decent opponent.

Thing with both Holmes and Foreman is they both fought better competition in the 90's although lost to most of them (and Holmes lost to Tyson in the 80's) with the notable exceptions of Mercer and Moorer but they did perform very well in their losing fights!

So in summary the overlap is not there at the right times, I think Holmes did a little more total work BUT...

After analysing the performance of both men against common opponents I will concede you this, Foreman seems to have performed better than Holmes did sometimes against better versions of some opponents.

I'm not so sure anymore but I rate them about even anyhow!

[$Bullsfam$]

From the get go I consider Foreman and Holmes pretty even competitively on the whole and fair equivalent in resume.

Truth is, Foreman's first career consists of a pretty weak resume, weaker in fact than Holmes 48 win streak worth of opponents.

Considering Ali, Holmes won, Foreman didn't but that's not really fair so we'll spare that one of course.

I don't rate Frazier at all I think if one has to use Frazier as any sort of argument for greatness it's a big epic fail. I would not consider Holmes in my top 10 if he would lose to that calibre of opponent.

Foreman's battle with Ron Lyle was a great fight though and his best win of the era imo. A big, tough opponent with a hard punch!

Holmes has good wins though, I don't rate Shavers either but he's atleast as dangerous as Frazier. Cooney is a big, durable hard puncher like Lyle, Witherspoon and Smith are solid opponents, Berbick was a decent opponent.

Thing with both Holmes and Foreman is they both fought better competition in the 90's although lost to most of them (and Holmes lost to Tyson in the 80's) with the notable exceptions of Mercer and Moorer but they did perform very well in their losing fights!

So in summary the overlap is not there at the right times, I think Holmes did a little more total work BUT...

After analysing the performance of both men against common opponents I will concede you this, Foreman seems to have performed better than Holmes did sometimes against better versions of some opponents.

I'm not so sure anymore but I rate them about even anyhow!

How can you be so disrespectful to Smokin Joe and yet praise Holmes so highly? Fraizer would have ruled the 80s.

Holmes is abit more technically sound then Ali but what made Ali better was his intangibles. His chin was great and could fight a variety of ways. His durability was the only thing that got him past Smokin Joe the last two times after Joe whipped his ass.

Fraizer would have gave Holmes the ass whooping of a life time.



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[Tommo1]

Holmes would have completely outclassed Frazier for a UD because he knew how to keep an opponent like Joe at bay and at the end of his jab.

Muhammad Ali's complete lack of any kind of proper defence and reflexes at this stage allowed Joe to land his simplistic attack at will and were Joe Frazier not so punch weak he would have finished Ali!

Ali's intangibles were fortunately more in his favour against Foreman! Who unfortunately was more foolish and thought he could eventually just **** Ali out.

How can you say Frazier would rule the 80's?

Holmes, Berbick, Cooney, Witherspoon, Smith and several others would beat Frazier imo. And Tyson would knock Frazier out the first flush hit he landed!

[Bullet Charley]

lmaooo @ even acknowledging holmes as a top 20

[Scott9945]

Did you just read my last post kid? Foreman wanted to fight Holmes if he couldn't get to Ali and Holmes people declined and Holmes never said anything about it because he knew he couldn't be Foreman. End of story.

That is bullspit. Offer some proof or STFU, kid.

[McGoorty]

Is Holmes the GOAT but because hes a miserable bstard that no one likes and he peed off every white person in history with his jock strap remark, and followed in the shadows of Ali's epic run, does he not get the credit as the GOAT?

I mean I see him out boxing Ali, and Lennox Lewis and im not too sure what would go down if he faced Joe Louis, but he seems to match up pretty favourably to all the other all time greats that often get considered GOAT.

Also by GOAT I mean the guy that can beat everyone else or at least more of everyone else than anyone else.

Could Larry have done what ali did and beat foreman, liston, and fraizier?

Would he have always lost to Tyson? and does that say alot about how good Tyson could have been considered had he not gone off the rails?

I think he beats more heavyweight champions than any other heavyweight champion in history, what do you think?

Ummm, in a word. NO

[McGoorty]

Is Holmes the GOAT but because hes a miserable bstard that no one likes and he peed off every white person in history with his jock strap remark, and followed in the shadows of Ali's epic run, does he not get the credit as the GOAT?

I mean I see him out boxing Ali, and Lennox Lewis and im not too sure what would go down if he faced Joe Louis, but he seems to match up pretty favourably to all the other all time greats that often get considered GOAT.

Also by GOAT I mean the guy that can beat everyone else or at least more of everyone else than anyone else.

Could Larry have done what ali did and beat foreman, liston, and fraizier?

Would he have always lost to Tyson? and does that say alot about how good Tyson could have been considered had he not gone off the rails?

I think he beats more heavyweight champions than any other heavyweight champion in history, what do you think?

If you want to be serious, record wise, you simply can't compare the opponents Holmes beat to the list that Ali provides. as for Holmes beating Foreman at his best, that is just dreaming, the only way to beat Foreman was the way Ali did it, and despite his antics Ali was super super tough, I doubt many fighters could have beaten Foreman, george was just too MUCH, too big, that was one truly scary MOFO.