Who was the greatest Light heavyweight?

[BattlingNelson]

Thank you for the kind words, Bat.

Yes, Fleischer's light heavyweight top-10 looks rather bizzare - but he wasn't kidding! He was certain, that the old-timers were superior to modern boxers... and being an "old-timer" himself it's only natural, that he would think the fighters he grew up with, were the best ever! Can't blame him for that, really.

However, Mr. Fleischer took this idea to such an extreme, that it really is hard to take him seriously. And it's not only the light heavyweights. Below is his top-10 in the 8 classic divisions:


Heavyweights:
1 - Jack Johnson
2 - James J. Jeffries
3 - Bob Fitzsimmons
4 - Jack Dempsey
5 - James J. Corbett
6 - Joe Louis
7 - Sam Langford
8 - Gene Tunney
9 - Max Schmeling
10- Rocky Marciano

Light Heavyweights:
1 - Kid McCoy
2 - Philadelphia Jack O'Brian
3 - Jack Dillon
4 - Tommy Loughran
5 - Jack Root
6 - Battling Levensky
7 - Georges Carpentier
8 - Tom Gibbons
9 - Jack Delaney
10- Paul Berlenbach

Middleweights:
1 - Stanley Ketchell
2 - Tommy Ryan
3 - Harry Greb
4 - Mickey Walker
5 - Ray Robinson
6 - Frank Klaus
7 - Billy Papke
8 - Les Darcy
9 - Mike Gibbons
10- Jeff Smith

Welterweights:
1 - Joe Walcott
2 - Mysterious Billy Smith
3 - Jack Britton
4 - Ted Kid Lewis
5 - Dixie Kid
6 - Harry Lewis
7 - Willie Lewis
8 - Henry Armstrong
9 - Barney Ross
10- Jimmy McLarnin

Lightweights:
1 - Joe Gans
2 - Benny Leonard
3 - Owen Moran
4 - Freddy Welsh
5 - Battling Nelson
6 - George Kid Lavigne
7 - Tony Canzoneri
8 - Willie Ritchie
9 - Lew Tendler
10- Ad Wolgast

Featherweights:
1 - Terry McGovern
2 - Jim Driscoll
3 - Abe Attell
4 - Willie Pep
5 - Johnny Dundee
6 - Young Griffo
7 - Johnny Kilbane
8 - Kid Chocolate
9 - George K.O. Chaney
10- Louis Kid Kaplan

Bantamweights:
1 - George Dixon
2 - Pete Herman
3 - Kid Williams
4 - Eder Jofre
5 - Joe Lynch
6 - Bud Taylor
7 - Johnny Coulon
8 - Frankie Burns
9 - Eddie Campi
10- Panama Al Brown

Flyweight:
1 - Jimmy Wilde
2 - Pancho Villa
3 - Frankie Genaro
4 - Fidel La Barba
5 - Benny Lynch
6 - Elky Clark
7 - Johnny Buff
8 - Midget Wolgast
9 - Peter Kane
10- Pascual Perez

(From the 1972 edition of The Ring Record Book and Boxing Encyclopedia)

Thanks for posting Bundana.

Some peculiar choices. Particularly having Joe Louis so low is odd. He cannot have been too fond of his opposition even thoug Schmeling cracks the top 10 (above Marciano BTW).

A few other observations:

In the lightweight rankings it is worth noting, beside the pleasant surprise that battling Nelson is ranked 6th, that Gans is above Leonard.

At welterweight Fleischer ranks Mysterious Billy Smith, who I seem to remember reading, was the dirtiest ever fighter!

[Scott9945]

Thats silly. Again consider the weight class.

What are you talking about? You implied that Moorer was a blown up lightheavyweight. He was no more of a natural at that weight than De la Hoya was at junior lightweight. That's why he never weighed under 212 again as soon as he left the division. I've stood near Moorer, and he is genuinely a big guy.

[CHEECH]

hard to argue with ezzard charles at #1 with his record over the legend archie moore. i won't argue with that. moorer was an outstanding lightheavy but he didnt seem to spendmuch time there and never did unify so he might not get much consideration. the name that many seem to over look as a possible top 10 or 20 lightheavy is virgil hill. plenty of wins at 175 n on any given night coulda gave any of the greats all they could handle with his jab dominant style

[Debopam Roy]

Ezzard Charles, and also, Sam Langford, if you count him.

[SBleeder]

Have you looked at his record? Like the elites for this weightclass more than a few of his best victories are against guys who moved up down and all around....Burley, Archie Moore, he also beat Walcott and Louis at heavy. Maxim came up from middle weight didn't he?



My point here is not to disparage Charles who I think was one of the best....simply to point out that like a lot of light heavies, his record has to be considered against all his comp....not just at the weight. You are the one who wants to say silly things like "Moore was a real heavyweight." I explained that in this division truly great fighters...like Charles had to fight up and sometimes down, there is no great standard group at that weight.

My point is that when we say "Fighter A at this weight was a beast but at this weight was mediocre..." Well, I would put Moore at light heavy against any one at that weight, including Charles, Foster, Spinks and Holyfield.

Also you may not be aware but some of Charles Record is debatable...and again that is to take nothing away from the Cincinnati Cobra.

Ohuh bleeder I don't know if you made those comments about Moore it may have been another poster. If I got you mixed up sorry...At any rate Charles was a great and head to head he was superior, my point is that at that weight Moore belongs in an elite group, nothing more

It's Michael MOORER, and he has zero wins over ATGs at light heavyweight.

[billeau2]

What are you talking about? You implied that Moorer was a blown up lightheavyweight. He was no more of a natural at that weight than De la Hoya was at junior lightweight. That's why he never weighed under 212 again as soon as he left the division. I've stood near Moorer, and he is genuinely a big guy.

then we have a misunderstanding....I never implied such...or never meant too. On the contrary my point is that the whole light heavy division is a division that is transitory. I also said and stand by the assertion that Moore was a monster at "light heavy" and could compete with the best at this weight.

[billeau2]

It's Michael MOORER, and he has zero wins over ATGs at light heavyweight.

I don't like to review my post for spelling, if that bothers you TOO BAD! I spent too many years having to review things written for publication as a professional writer and grad school student....I enjoy typing as fast as I think....

As Ray has pointed out there are many ways to judge a fighter. Slapsie Maxie, who is on at least one list at this weight on this thread, had no ko power, lost lots of times and still to many was a great fighter. Moor had a reputation as a fighter's fighter at the Kronk. he beat steady good comp at the weight and like MOST light heavies fought a lot at heavyweight where he was not particulary good...yet still was a champ, something Ezzard Charles never achieved BTW. So its all relative.

Watch Moore's fights, and watch his first fight against a prime Holyfield, another fighter who could be considered a light heavy and heavy weight great.

[billeau2]

hard to argue with ezzard charles at #1 with his record over the legend archie moore. i won't argue with that. moorer was an outstanding lightheavy but he didnt seem to spendmuch time there and never did unify so he might not get much consideration. the name that many seem to over look as a possible top 10 or 20 lightheavy is virgil hill. plenty of wins at 175 n on any given night coulda gave any of the greats all they could handle with his jab dominant style

Thats a good one!!

[SBleeder]

I don't like to review my post for spelling, if that bothers you TOO BAD! I spent too many years having to review things written for publication as a professional writer and grad school student....I enjoy typing as fast as I think....

As Ray has pointed out there are many ways to judge a fighter. Slapsie Maxie, who is on at least one list at this weight on this thread, had no ko power, lost lots of times and still to many was a great fighter. Moor had a reputation as a fighter's fighter at the Kronk. he beat steady good comp at the weight and like MOST light heavies fought a lot at heavyweight where he was not particulary good...yet still was a champ, something Ezzard Charles never achieved BTW. So its all relative.

Watch Moore's fights, and watch his first fight against a prime Holyfield, another fighter who could be considered a light heavy and heavy weight great.

The only reason it bothers me is because "Moore" is the name of a true great LHW.

Holyfield never boxed as a light heavyweight. Not once, so Moorer's performance against a heavyweight Holyfield has no value in this discussion.

Ezzard Charles was never LHW champion because he never received a shot at the title. If you're talking about the heavyweight title, I'm sure you know that Charles did win the title at HW.

Michael Moorer was never considered the lineal LHW champion, either.

It seems like you're Boxrecking here.

[Barn]

As early as '42 Charles was a force at LHW when he drew with the very highly ranked Ken Overlin (a veteran with over 100 bouts) and taking out the also ranked Booker Beckwith and then defeated Joey Maxim twice who had proven his worth at this point by going on a decent little run against good fighters.

At the beginning of 1946: By Ring Magazine Moore was rated #1 LHW, Marshall #4 (Charles had also defeated Marshall when he was at his very best and was the rightful fighter for a title shot from Lesnevich that never came in 1943) and Billy Smith #9. Charles beat all of them that year. This moved him up to #2 LHW behind Billy Fox who hand't done much at all so I don't know how that was justified.

In 47' Moore was ranked #3 and Billy Smith #5, Marshall #7 Charles defeated all of them again. Moving him up to #1 LHW.

In '48, Moore was back at #2 LHW, so Charles beat him again.

Charles also beat Joey Maxim a mere year before he won the LHW title(against Lesneivich, the man who wouldn't give him a shot)

When Lesneivich was the LHW champion and would not face Charles, when they did eventually fight for a version of the HW title, Charles stopped him via a corner stoppage in a bout that basically took place at Light-Heavy.

Charles also has wins against people like Jimmy Bivins who were winning fights against the likes of Moore when he was at his peak which would make him one of the best LHW's in the world at this point.

So in his resume Charles has wins against plenty of HOF and World Champion opposition at LHW but his dismantling of the Top 20 ATG Moore across 3 fights is what really should count for the most here.

Moore x3 (LHW ATG, HOF)
Lloyd Marshall (HOF, #1 LHW)
Joey Maxim (HOF, LHW Champ)
Jimmy Bivins (HOF, #1 LHW)
Gus Les (LHW Champ)
Oakland Billy Smith, Beckwith and a bunch of other contenders.

Against most of these opponents he has more than one win.