greatest light weight!

[brownpimp88]

It's one of these guys:

Benny Leonard
Joe Gans
Henry Armstrong
Ike Williams

or

Roberto Duran, of course.


Can't think of anyone else in their league.

what did armstrong do at 135? His accomplishments are mostly at 147 and 126. Pernell whitaker is usually ranked higher than ike williams and joe gans, its simple, he has more skills.

Ring Magazine do in fact rank pernell ahead of tony cazanory, ike williams, and carlos ortiz. If you dont believe me, look it up. Hell i'll paste it right now.

Here is thier 10 best from the last 80 years.

1. ray robinson
2. henry armstrong
3. muhammad ali
4. joe louis
5. roberto duran
6. willie pep
7. harry greb
8. benny leonard
9. ray leonard
10. pernell whitaker

I agree with gringo though, i would favour pernell over any lightweight in a head to head matchup.

I honestly think pernell is better than benny. He couldnt win the welterweight title, while pernell was linear welterweight champ for 4 years. Pernell also won the belt at 140 and 154. The guys pernell beat at 135 are also better than the ones that benny beat. He beat ramirez, haugen, nazario, paez, roger mayweather, jones, poli diaz, azumah nelson, freddie pendelton and louie lomelli.

[K-DOGG]

what did armstrong do at 135? His accomplishments are mostly at 147 and 126. Pernell whitaker is usually ranked higher than ike williams and joe gans, its simple, he has more skills.

Ring Magazine do in fact rank pernell ahead of tony cazanory, ike williams, and carlos ortiz. If you dont believe me, look it up. Hell i'll paste it right now.

Here is thier 10 best from the last 80 years.

1. ray robinson
2. henry armstrong
3. muhammad ali
4. joe louis
5. roberto duran
6. willie pep
7. harry greb
8. benny leonard
9. ray leonard
10. pernell whitaker

I agree with gringo though, i would favour pernell over any lightweight in a head to head matchup.

I honestly think pernell is better than benny. He couldnt win the welterweight title, while pernell was linear welterweight champ for 4 years. Pernell also won the belt at 140 and 154. The guys pernell beat at 135 are also better than the ones that benny beat. He beat ramirez, haugen, nazario, paez, roger mayweather, jones, poli diaz, azumah nelson, freddie pendelton and louie lomelli.

I'll have to answer in detail tomorrow; but Hank was a damn good lightweight champ as well as welterweight champ and deserves to be recognized.


More to come.

[brownpimp88]

Let's take a good look at the guys benny leonard beat during his lightweight reign.

freddie welsh
leo johnson
jimmy duffy
charley white
joe welling
frankie mitchell
rocky kansas
lew tendler
jack britton
dundee

Not a single guy from this list is an ATG on the level of azumah nelson and julio cesar chavez. Pernell whitaker is better than good ole benny, give it up.

[Dempsey1238]

Thsos are GREAT fighters though.

Rocky Kansas is a former champ. Largely FORGOTTING in this era. But in his hey day, he was hot stuff. He was able to nab the title for a year, All though not in the hall of fame, He is a GREAT fighter. Sadly there is no film of Kansas, but he is top 20 lightweights at the least imo. One of the best in the early 1920's.

You must of not seen the Tendler fight. I score it for Benny easy. Though it was a ND bout. But still Tendler was a FAST, hard punching lightweight. He was only a step behind Leonard in that fight. Tendler would GIVE any atg problems. he is no push over. IF Benny had anything NEAR a rivial in his lightweight rein, It was Tendler.

Jack Brittion was a ALL time great. In the 1900's that is. His rivial with Ted Kid Lewis is still rember. OF couse when Benny fought him, he was pass his best, BUT still a good fighter. Passing of the torch is how I view it. I belive Jack Brittion is in the hall. IF NOT it is a shame, because Brittion was a great figther.


freddie welsh IS a great fighter, his problem is he lost to Benny. Former champ and Leonard took the title from Welsh. Welsh was a a great boxer. And Johnny Dundee was OTHER atg in lightweights. He held the title for nearly 5 years. after Benny retire. And is in the hall. These guys are NOT push overs. And are evey bit as good as Nelson, Whitaker, or Chavez. Time has made most people forget these forgotting fighters. They were great. And WOULD give any one trouble if not out right beat them.

[K-DOGG]

Let's take a good look at the guys benny leonard beat during his lightweight reign.

freddie welsh
leo johnson
jimmy duffy
charley white
joe welling
frankie mitchell
rocky kansas
lew tendler
jack britton
dundee

Not a single guy from this list is an ATG on the level of azumah nelson and julio cesar chavez. Pernell whitaker is better than good ole benny, give it up.

Dude!! Are You Serious?! Have you read the accounts of any of those fights?!

Honestly speaking, I can only vouch for Welsh, Britton, Dundee and Tendler, who were bonafied greats; but the others had damn impressive records, so they were obviously not "bums".

I would not be so quick to sweep Leonard's legacy under the rug. I'm not dissing Whitaker, who was a bonafied all-time great; but I"m not about to say he was better than Leonard when Leonard's record is just as impressive.....especially when considering how many more fights he had. Could Whitaker have been as successful as Leonard if he had fought as much and as often?

Something worth thinking about.

[PATO 1]

roberto duran

[K-DOGG]

I do have a correction to make. When I listed Armstrong as one of teh best ever lightweights, I was thinking of his welterweight achievements....kind of hard to keep up with a guy who held titles in three divisions at once, ya know.

[brownpimp88]

Dude!! Are You Serious?! Have you read the accounts of any of those fights?!

Honestly speaking, I can only vouch for Welsh, Britton, Dundee and Tendler, who were bonafied greats; but the others had damn impressive records, so they were obviously not "bums".

I would not be so quick to sweep Leonard's legacy under the rug. I'm not dissing Whitaker, who was a bonafied all-time great; but I"m not about to say he was better than Leonard when Leonard's record is just as impressive.....especially when considering how many more fights he had. Could Whitaker have been as successful as Leonard if he had fought as much and as often?

Something worth thinking about.

dude none of them are as good as nelson and chavez, i have done my research on them. I know how long each guy was champ, how many defences they made, who they beat, etc. Jack britton lost more times than pernell whitaker won fights

I saw the fight between tendler and leonard, no way does this guy beat duran or whitaker. I respect benny for breaking the colour line and being a hero to his ***ish people, but to actually say he is better than guys like duran and whitaker is honestly an insult to both men.

The only resason benny fought so much is cuz he didnt have much of an amatuer career. Remember pernell is 201-14 in the amatuers and its the same thing as having ur first 60-70 pro fights against guys with 0-0 records.

By the way. benny's "draw" with ted kid lewis, was indeed a gift. The majority say he really lost that fight.

[LondonRingRules]

dude none of them are as good as nelson and chavez, i have done my research on them.

** Dudette, you're like the guy who can identify surfboards but can't see the waves. Watching you defame a great fighter like Pea with your washerwoman flurries on Leonard is high comedy that normally costs mucho dinero!

Pea would be a handful for anyone because of his speed and negative style, but the poor guy was only good for 46 fights in spite of being carefully managed and and turning pro with a million dollar TV contract.

46 fights in Leonard's day and you might get your foot in the door of a main event if you kicked back half your purse. Forget about a title shot. Pea would be considered soft in Leonard's day when you had to fight 10-20x a year.

[brownpimp88]

** Dudette, you're like the guy who can identify surfboards but can't see the waves. Watching you defame a great fighter like Pea with your washerwoman flurries on Leonard is high comedy that normally costs mucho dinero!

Pea would be a handful for anyone because of his speed and negative style, but the poor guy was only good for 46 fights in spite of being carefully managed and and turning pro with a million dollar TV contract.

46 fights in Leonard's day and you might get your foot in the door of a main event if you kicked back half your purse. Forget about a title shot. Pea would be considered soft in Leonard's day when you had to fight 10-20x a year.

dude it just means that leonard fought more guys with 0-0 records.