greatest light weight!

[Yogi]

It might be of interest to those who haven't seen it yet, so here's the IBRO's ranking of the greatest Lightweights of all-time;

1. Benny Leonard
2. Roberto Duran
3. Joe Gans
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Tony Canzoneri
6. Ike Williams
7. Pernell Whitaker
8. Barnet Ross
9. Julio Cesar Chavez
10. Lou Ambers
11. Carlos Ortiz
12. Jack Blackburn
13. Battling Nelson
14. Alexis Arguello
15. Freddie Welsh
16. Packy McFarland
17. Aaron Pryor
18. Joe Brown
19. Shane Mosley
20. Jack McAuliffe

Just missing the cut: Ad Wolgast, Beau Jack, Lew Tendler, Kid Lavigne, Floyd Mayweather Jr., Ken Buchanan, Bob Montgomery, Ismael Laguna, Sammy Mandell, Sammy Angott and Esteban DeJesus.

Can be found here along with their other divisional rankings from Featherweight to Heavyweight;

http://www.ibroresearch.com/All%20Time%20Rankings.htm

[Yogi]

And here's The Ring's ranking of the 20 greatest Lightweights of all-time, which was first printed in their Sept 2001 issue;

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Pernell Whitaker
4. Joe Gans
5. Ike Williams
6. Joe Brown
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Tony Canzoneri
9. Bob Montgomery
10. Beau Jack
11. Lou Ambers
12. Freddie Welsh
13. Shane Mosley
14. Henry Armstrong
15. Esteban DeJesus
16. Ken Buchanan
17. Jack McAuliffe
18. Ismael Laguna
19. Ad Wolgast
20. Oscar De La Hoya

Honourable Mentions: Sammy Angott, Alexis Arguello, Jimmy Carter, Julio Cesar Chavez, Miguel Angel Gonzalez, Steve Johnston, Battling Nelson, Jose Luis Ramirez, Edwin Rosario and Barney Ross


Bah...I like the IBRO's better on a whole, but to be fair, their's were based on a compilation from a number of people, while The Ring's is based on the opinion of only one writer (William Dettloff).

[Dempsey1238]

why would Pernell Whitaker be over the likes or Ross, Gans and co???

[hellfire508]

1.Roberto Duran
2.Benny Leonard
3.Joe Gans
4.Pernell Whitaker
5.Ike Williams
6. Julio Cesar Chavez
7. Henry Armstrong
8.Tony Canzoneri
9.Lou Ambers
10.Carlos Ortiz

[Yogi]

why would Pernell Whitaker be over the likes or Ross, Gans and co???

How about I let Dettloff answer that question for you, Greek, and I'll copy what he says about Whitaker in his writeup from that issue of The Ring?


"For whatever reason, you won't find a lot of guys who will admit that Whitaker is one of the best lightweights ever. probably it has less to do with his fighting ability and talent than it does with his personality, which many find grating, and his style, which many find boring. The case is easily made regardless because outside of Roberto Duran and Benny leonard, the two who procede him in this compilation, there never has been a more dominant or consistent lightweight.

Consider first: from the time he turned pro with a second-round kayo of Farrain Comeaux in 1984, until just before he decisioned Rafael Pineda to win the IBF junior welterweight title in July 1992, Whitaker went undefeated in 30 fights. (Of course, the record books will tell you he lost a decision to Jose Luis Ramirez in March '88 in his first title shot. Don't believe them. Don King knew it, and Jose Sulaiman knew it. The judges knew it, too, or should have at least. Whitaker shut him out in a rematch a year later--same as the first time.)

During that 30-fight span, Whitaker unified the lightweight title, made a total of eight defenses, and whipped outright every challenger that could be found. If he lost five rounds during that 30-fight period (not including the first Ramirez fight) it would suprise anyone who followed him closely and watched him dissect and outbox Roger Mayweather, Greg Haugen, Freddie Pendleton, Anthony Jones, Jorge Paez, and even the great Azumah Nelson, among others. He faced anyone who represented even a reasonable challenge. The more dangerous the better. He had no reason to duck anyone.

Was it exciting when Whitaker was getting all this business done? Hell no. There never was drama. He was so much better than everyone, any question of an upset dissipated by the second round. then the only question was whether he would score a knockout. Usually, it was no. Was he a gracious winner? No again. He taunted and mocked everyone in the ring, including Nelson, which seemed at the time to be in especially bad taste, seeing as how Nelson was coming up in weight and already was past his best. But great fighters aren't always nice guys. Get over it.

Even as Whitaker's place in history is diminished by some, there are those who rank him as the greatest lightweight ever, above Duran and Leonard. You could make a case, but his body of work at 135 isn't big enough. If he had stayed at lightweight for a longer period, if not for the duration of his career, it would have been different. He might have pocketed another 10 title defenses, maybe reigned for seven or eight years, maybe more. But some of his best and most important fights--against Julio Cesar Chavez and Buddy McGirt, for example--came at welterweight. Either way, we wouldn't bet against him in a fight against any lightweight on this list. He was that great."

Signed: Max Kelle...oops, William "Buttfly" Dettloff

[Dempsey1238]

but still number 3 of ALL time??

[hellfire508]

Both Gans and Whitaker have very impressive resumes. Their dominance at LW is obvious, but for the moment we will just look at opposition:

Whitaker:
Azumah Nelson
Jose Luis Ramirez
Roger Mayweather
Jorge Paez
Juan Nazario

Gans:
Battling Nelson
Rudy Unholz
Jack Blackburn
Joe Walcott (D)
Kid Herman
Jimmy Britt
Frank Erne

Both have impressive resumes at lightweight. Gans had 17 defenses according to some sources, though the official number is 14. He holds the record at lightweight.

When you consider that blacks were so hated at the time, it is widely accepted most of the draws and ND's on Gans' record are infact wins, though they weren't awarded.

The same went for Whitaker against Chavez - he was robbed- though that was at 147.

I would love to see Gans vs whitaker, two great - flashy fighters and defensive experts in the ring.

[LondonRingRules]

** I'm gonna keep my mouth shut because I see the proper fighters are getting the proper respect in general.

Personally, I think Armstrong KOs Pea in a 15 rounder had they met. Too much pressure smooshes peas, ya know. Yeah, I had to pipe up!

[blockhead]

why would Pernell Whitaker be over the likes or Ross, Gans and co???

or armstrong.

[hellfire508]

or armstrong.

Personally...I think Armstrong was far better at featherweight and welterweight. Still top ten at light though.