greatest light weight!

[Yogi]

why not

1 Joe Gans(I have 2 fights with him, I pretty amazing with him)
2 Benny Learod.
3 Roberto Duran
4 Ike Williams
5 Joe Brown
6 Barney Ross
7 Tony Canzoneri
8 Battling Nelson
9 Jack McAuliffe
10 Henry Armstrong Top ten of couse, but he did not relly do that much in the lightweights imo.

I like it!

And I especially like the fact that you've included McAuliffe in there, as I think it's unfortunate that he doesn't get nearly the amount of credit he used to back in the first half of the century (or last century now). Nowadays people seem to focus more on the controversy surrounding a couple of his fights as a way of discrediting him and a high ranking in this division, but for a number of years after he retired, the guy was one of the main benchmarks for other great Lightweight to be compared against...He'd make my top fifteen, for sure, and likely makes my top dozen.

Battling Nelson is another guy who's often left off such lists, but the tough-as-hell Dane is another guy who should be remembered as one of the legends of the Lightweight division...He'd make my top twenty, for sure, and possibly top fifteen. Would most likely be my choice as the toughest Lightweight of all-time, as well.

And I tend to give the Lightweight version of Armstrong credit for what he did during the first part of his Welterweight reign, when he routinely weighed under the Lightweight limit (concievably, I don't rank him as high as others do at Welterweight). I have a tendency to do that for other fighters/divisions, as well, like when Terry McGovern defeated George Dixon for the Featherweight title while both of them weighed in under the modern Bantamweight limit, which propels McGovern right near the very top of a list of who I think the greatest Bantamweights in history are/were (Dixon also gets the same credit for a number of his title defenses while weighing under 118).

Anyways...Good stuff, Greek!

[butterfly1964]

no contest, by far, joe gans!

[Dempsey1238]

I have footage of Jack McAuliffe sparing with Dempsey and Carpntera.

I was impress with him for a work out that is. They never relly went at it, I am pretty sure Dempsey would crush a 40 something year old McAuliffe in 1 round. they were playing around. BUT you can see his style. He was not a slugger, but a boxer, on his toes, working behind the jab. Sort of like Tommy Burns if one puts it.

And Tommy Burns was a GREAT fighter, on a pound for pound sense. Sure not a great heavyweight, but again he weight in 170's lol.

I was impress with Burns vs O'Brain.

[Yogi]

I have footage of Jack McAuliffe sparing with Dempsey and Carpntera.

I was impress with him for a work out that is. They never relly went at it, I am pretty sure Dempsey would crush a 40 something year old McAuliffe in 1 round. they were playing around. BUT you can see his style. He was not a slugger, but a boxer, on his toes, working behind the jab. Sort of like Tommy Burns if one puts it.

And Tommy Burns was a GREAT fighter, on a pound for pound sense. Sure not a great heavyweight, but again he weight in 170's lol.

I was impress with Burns vs O'Brain.

Yep, I remember that McAuliffe thread of yours over at ESB and I was the one who posted that Ring article on him (Sam I Am!).

And you're right about Tommy Burns & it's really unfortunate that he's so underated as a p4p fighter nowadays. I've never seen the O'Brien footage of him (only vs. Squires & Johnson), but I'm impressed with what little I've seen from him (quick of hand & especially foot, with some excellant power in those long arms of his) and also what I've read of him by those around during his time...Because of his size & accomplishments, I'd rate him as a Light Heavyweight and the success he had against O'Brien (who's a great Light heavy in his own right) indicates that he'd be a tough fight for any sub 175 pounder in history.

[Dempsey1238]

A few others that are mostly over look are Ike Williams and Joe Brown.

I not sure, why but Williams was the best lightweight of the 1940's or so, But it seem Jack and others got the bigger fans, and MADE more money, could be William's mangment were ripping Williams off of eveny dime he made off his fights. And we thought Don King was a crook lol. Williams was paid next to nothing for his title fights.

Jack of couse made all this money, spend it on wine, women and song, got broke, and went back to shinning shoes. Not bad if one considers the HUGH tips Marciano would give him.(Thinks to Rocky's rich freinds of couse.)

Marciano seem to go out of his way to look after Jack and other down and out fighters.

I loved Barney Ross, even though NOT the greatness lightweight of all time, he IS MY FAVOR lightweight of all time. He was fun to watch, I have a few of his fights with McLarnin, and Canzonzier and others. Great fighter. And in over 80 pro fights, HAS never been knockout. He had a great chin. and he face punchers like Toni and Armstrong. of couse Armstrong was said to carry the old champion, but I not sure if Armstrong try to knockout Ross, he would have ko him , maybe stop him yes. But not put him out with a ten count.
Ross was one of the great ones, and in a rival between a ***, A Italian, and a Irish was what one Manager said, was a gold mind.

Ross of couse was the ***, Toni the Italian, and McLarnin the Irish.

Thsos 3 had neighborhood wars in the 1930's and MADE up a great part of the ***, Italian, Irish rival in boxing at the time. And made a lot of money for the sport at the time.

As for Nelson he is there for a top ten, kinda of to Gans, was the Joe Fraizer to Gans's Ali.

And Fraizer is a top ten imo. They both are almost alike, Take a hit to deliver one, and just keep punching. Nelson could complete. I was amazing with the Gans Nelson fight(over a hour of footage I have) with how they both took and deliver punisment on both sides. Than at the later rounds(30ish lol) Gans took over and knock down Nelson a few times, before Nelson low blow Gans.

Nelson would beat Gans 2 times after this lost.
One of the greats, Sure Mayweather could out box Nelson for 12 rounds, but could he do it for 30?? 40??? 100??? Nelson is over look. And he fought in a deep era.

I am relly thinking of dropping Armstrong, as like I said, he only held it for a short time, NEVER defended the title, and drop it after doing that feat.
Ambers maybe?? Britt??? Both have done more for the divsion than Armstrong. Carter?? Ortiz??? Relly a hard choice since there is so many great ones.

[BKM-]

Duran Duran

[blockhead]

roberto duran

[Yogi]

A few others that are mostly over look are Ike Williams and Joe Brown.

I not sure, why but Williams was the best lightweight of the 1940's or so, But it seem Jack and others got the bigger fans, and MADE more money, could be William's mangment were ripping Williams off of eveny dime he made off his fights. And we thought Don King was a crook lol. Williams was paid next to nothing for his title fights.

Jack of couse made all this money, spend it on wine, women and song, got broke, and went back to shinning shoes. Not bad if one considers the HUGH tips Marciano would give him.(Thinks to Rocky's rich freinds of couse.)

Marciano seem to go out of his way to look after Jack and other down and out fighters.

Greek, Ike Williams is my favourite historical Lightweight fighter and I'm glad you also have a high opinion of him. And yeah...whether it him being blackballed by the Managers Guild after parting ways with McCarthy, or the fact that Ike was attacked & had his belt stolen immediately after defeating Zurita, or because he had so much stolen from him by those who surrounded him...He never got nearly the breaks or certainly the coin that Beau Jack did throughout that great era of Lightweights.

But man, what a friggin' fighter! Love the way he looks on film, especially the 6th round destruction of Jack in '48. Just about the total package with his great inside & outside skills, elusiveness, quick reflexes, great power, handspeed, strength, toughness, punch variety, agressiveness, heart, pride, etc., etc...You name it, and Ike was liable to count that as one of his many fighting attributes. Oh, and he could also be pretty nasty too if the situation called for it, as evident by him saying that he "wanted to murder Montgomery" in their rematch, even though he gave the Bobcat a pretty good ****kicking in one of the great fights of that whole era.

I would've loved to have been around and following/watching the Lightweights of that mid 1940's era, because there was some ****ing great talent in the division at that time...Ike Williams, Bob Montgomery, Beau Jack, Sammy Angott, Willie Joyce, Freddie Dawson, Enrique Bolanos, Lulu Constantino, Wesley Mouzon, Jesse Flores, Juan Zurita, etc...The Lightweight division of the 1940's was loaded with top-notch talent and they were putting on some of the most memorable & exciting fights in all of boxing.

And yeah, Marciano did visit Beau Jack quite often at the Lac Fontaine Bleau Hotel, or whatever it was called (I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment, but it was French sounding anyways) and like you say, often had his "entourage" give Jack a fist full of dollars. Beau Jack used to bug Marciano about that too, because he wanted to at least give Rocky the odd shoeshine in exchange...But Marciano would have none of that, as he had WAY too much respect for the great Lightweight. There's a quote in Marciano's bio along the lines of "I'll never let you shine my shoes, because you were too great of a champion."

There's also stories about how Marciano helped other fighters like Georgie Abrams for example, who was working as a parking valet or something, and I think Rocky just about nailed Abrmas boss one time because he thought Georgie was being disrespected (and made sure Georgie was going to eat for the next long while, as well).

Of course, there was Willie Pep, who Rocky went out of his way to help out whenever possible, whether it be getting Willie in on an appearance or just giving him some cash..."Take whatever you want Willie". Pep was one of, if not THE fighter that Rocky looked up to the most.

[Yogi]

P.S. I meant to post this Battling Nelson link for anybody interested in reading up on this great fighter & character from so long ago;

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/4980/index.htm

It's been a while since I read through it, but there's some top quality stuff about Nelson on that site and it's a great read!

[Dempsey1238]

yeah Marciano help out a lot of old fighters down and out

Joe Louis
Ezzard Charles.
Pep
JAck
and others, the list is endless I guess.

He paid for Charles med care, when Charles was dieing.