Who Would get Knocked Down First if prime liston vs prime tyson...........

[BKM-]

Brilliant post Brassangel.

[supaduck]

I agree with that dude.

[butterfly1964]

Well, we all know that Mike stating that Charles "Sonny" Liston would have intimidated him was a contradiction of his beliefs. After all, Mike himself said that he was intimidated by every fighter he faced; it was just a matter of putting the gloves together and doing his job. Many fighters for that matter were intimidated and full of adrenaline before a fight. We can't say for them how they felt, we can only quote that they have ALL said it before; even Ali and Liston. Muhammad Ali said he was shaking like a leaf right before the first fight with Liston, because he didn't know what to expect. His motivation was the fact that he didn't want his brother to fight (get beat up, really) anymore, and he didn't want his parents to worry about money. So, after he coasted through the first two rounds, he took that nervous energy and turned it into confidence. Likewise, Liston himself said (to his wife) that he was terrified of Ali because, "...the boy seemed crazy. I never knew what to expect from someone who acted like that...". Joe Frazier said that he was usually intimidated until he took a few punches from an opponent. Then he grew confident because he knew what to expect from his adversaries. Intimidation will play a factor in any fight.

Now, while Roy Jones Jr. was a "true" middleweight as you put it, anyone with the slightest bit of health and diet knowledge knows that putting on weight makes you sluggish and diminishes your speed. That's a risk that fighters take when jumping up to heavyweight, instead of trimming down to a lower weight class. Also, your own power will be less than that of a fighter who is seasoned in said weight division. Furthermore, Jones was 36 years old when they tested him. Another commonplace is that speed decreases with age far quicker than power does. So not only do you have a man who added meat to his normally trim body which would slow him down, there was also a 13 year age difference between his testing and those of Ali. There's no excuse for this one; Ali wasn't the absolute fastest guy (per hand speed) in heavyweight history. It doesn't matter what weight class Jones started out as, it doesn't matter that he weighed 8 pounds less at testing, as he had to gain a bunch of weight beforehand. The results don't lie, and Jones even gave up 13 years of speed vs. The Greatest in this test. Muhammad Ali had an incredible left jab; the purest of it's kind. Muhammad Ali had amazing footwork and respitory conditioning, giving him beautiful fluidity. These things don't automatically conclude that he was the "fastest" in the raw sense of the word.

Now, back to the topic at hand (my apologies for jumping around): Liston would fall from Tyson's punches faster that Tyson would fall from Liston's. Liston himself said that Ali's right hand caught him completely off-guard after his head was already scrambled from continuously spinning clockwise around the ring. Muhammad Ali truly knocked Liston down. The fact that Sonny refused to get up isn't the issue; the punch actually floored him, he said so himself. Tyson, on the other hand, usually had to take consecutive rounds of unhindered punishment before he fell to the canvas. Tyson's shots were notorious for catching people off guard, plus they packed considerable power. Throw that into Liston's scrambled head from trying to figure out where Mike's attacking from and he'd probably go down first. Does that mean Tyson would win the fight? I don't know. But I do believe that Liston would get knocked down first.

P.S. Ali himself didn't start out a heavyweight in the olympics or in his first professional fights, so I guess that nullifies his speed credentials as well, doesn't it?

no it doesn't, because ali did start out as a hw when he turned pro, and he won amateur awards as a hw as well.

and i'm saying name someone who was a true hw that clocked higher speeds than ali?

[supaduck]

Ali filled out into a heavyweight naturally, didn't he?

I don't think there is a faster fighter than Ali.

[butterfly1964]

Ali filled out into a heavyweight naturally, didn't he?

I don't think there is a faster fighter than Ali.

at least no natural hw.

[Brassangel]

*sigh*

Yikes...it's happened three times since the 70's. I'm just asking the kids to do a little research.

[DRZ]

tyson was not a "boxer" he was a bulldog, a slugger...the MOST OVER_RATED piece of work to ever put on the leather

I dont know what your smoking, if he didn't get into Don Kings's hand, he would had stayed with trainer Kevin Rooney, not have lost to Douglas, cause Rooney would make Tyson train fully, not had gone to prison, even though I still dont believe he did **** her.

My point is he was knocking out ppl like nothing with Rooney as trainer, and would have kept on doing so. He probably would never have lost his heavyweight titles, (atleast not till he was around 35+ yrs old) and would of beat Holyfield, Lewis, etc.

Now if he didn't leave Kevin Rooney, and etc... you cannot say he wouldn't be recognized as an great all-time boxer or one of the greatest boxers of all time!

[Brassangel]

Tyson wasn't a slugger. He was a volume puncher. Just because he had the power of most sluggers doesn't make him so. He relied more on speed and defense to land his clean, powerful combinations; as opposed to just swinging haymakers at his opponents. The Tyson who joined King's camp was a sack-of-sand slugger, and the proof was in the pudding: slugging was not his game.

This subject should so be over anyway, but hey, I'll contribute...

Liston goes down first. It's not about who wins, just who gets knocked down first.

[butterfly1964]

... wow, that is a disgrace to boxing knowledge... what in the **** does frazier vs foreman have to do with any ****ing thing...you are clearly an idiot... they are 4 different fighters... so what if they had different styles... there are PLENTY PLENTY AND PLENTY of fights where a swarmer completly beat the **** out of a slugger... watch some other fights dufus... tyson was quicker, stronger, hit much harder, and in all around better shape than frazier...

not when the slugger is bigger than the swarmer.

[Brassangel]

Okay then Butterfly, list every sinly heavyweight match where a slugger fought a volume puncher, and then prove to us where the slugger won every single time. Frazier vs. Foreman doesn't count....go ahead. It'll be a matter of minutes before people prove to you where it could happen the other way. There are few absolutes in boxing, so this "sluggers always beat volume punchers" of yours doesn't always apply.

Furthermore, Frazier and Foreman are not Tyson and Liston.