Where do you rate Harry Wills on your HW lists?

[JAB5239]

Ray Arcel, who saw Wills fight, who started training fighters in 1915 and finished up with Duran, called Wills a "pretty good journeyman boxer." This whole trip of Wills being 'great' is a new idea and doesn't make much sense, given that, in his era, he wasn't considered to be anything special.

Do you have a source for this? Because considering he was the #1 contender for years suggests otherwise as well as his resume over other top heavyweights. I also doubt Parcel was training fighters in 1915.....he didn't graduate high school till 1917.

[greynotsoold]

On page 300-301 of Roger Kahn's book "A Flame OF Pure Fire: Jack Dempsey and the Roaring '20s", Ray Arcel is quoted as saying, of Wills: "He didn't hit anywhere nears as hard as Dempsey, and he didn't move anywhere near as smoothly as Carpentier. I would rate Wills as a very good journeyman."
On page 269 of the same book Firpo is quoted as saying "The Brown Panther (Wills) is more of a wrestler than a boxer." John Lardner, in his book White Hopes and Other Tigers came to the conclusion that Dempsey would have easily beaten Wills.
Arcel regularly turned to Dempsey's demolition of Willard when asked who he thought was the greatest HW ever, saying that nobody could have beaten Dempsey that day. He was there, and I believe I have read that it was because he had a fighter on the undercard, though perhaps it could've been that he knew somebody on the undercard.

[Rspen46]

Not top 10 or 15

If you look at Wills record on boxingrec, Paulino Uzcudun easily handled him, & therefore I believe so would Dempsey & Tunney, but it would have been nice if they had actually done it.

Many of Will's bouts against the big 3 black men of the time, Langford, Mcvea & Jeannette, were very late in their careers, apparently the last 3 or so fights with Langford, was when Langford was blind in 1 eye practically & many of Will's bouts against these top guys, most claimed Will's resorted to low blows & other fouls on them.

Will's was big at 6-3 could box & had decent power, in his prime he would have given any of them a good fight, but I doubt he beats any of them in their prime.

[Salardo]

I have footage of Harry Wills apart from his loss against Uzcudun. I have short footage of Wills vs Madden and Wills vs Firpo.

[Ivich]

Yes, to both.

Its irritating that Johnson gets so much credit for his wins over green McVea, Jeannette and Langford, while Wills isnt even thrown into the top 10 with him even when he has multiple wins over all of them.Not to mention Wills beat guys like Weinhart and Firpo that were contenders in Dempsey's day.

Not that I would necessarily rate Wills over either of them...but If youre going to rate Johnson or Dempsey in the higher part of your top 10, Wills better be there as well.

This isnt strictly true Wills fought McVey 7 times ,he lost the first two,won the third ,In the fourth McVey claimed a foul but it was denied.the 5th was ruled a draw ,he won the 6th ,the 7th was a fake.As McVey aged Wills usually got the better of him but Sam was 34 -36 in their last fights. Wills only beat Jeannette once , again when he aged ,Joe was 40 years old. Their first two fights were draws, and Jeannette was 35 in the second one.
Wills beat Fulton and Firpo but both had been destroyed by Dempsey ,Fulton in under half a minute Firpo in 2 rds. Wills beat Madden by decision but a year later Tunney crushed Madden in 3rds.

When Wills was nearing the age Jeannette was when he beat him ,Wills was thrashed by Sharkey and Uzcudun.
I think Wills was the benificiary of a chronological time line, prime Langford,McVey and Jeannette beat him imo.

[Gatling]

Well we have Ali, Tyson, Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield, Lennox, Holmes, Marciano, Johnson, Louis as a top 10 (no order here)

Then Wladmir, Liston, Patterson, Tunney, Dempsey, Walcott, Norton, etc.

I think he fits in around a top 20 or 25

[Ivich]

Well we have Ali, Tyson, Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield, Lennox, Holmes, Marciano, Johnson, Louis as a top 10 (no order here)

Then Wladmir, Liston, Patterson, Tunney, Dempsey, Walcott, Norton, etc.

I think he fits in around a top 20 or 25

That would seem reasonable.

A young Wills was a sparring partner for Johnson briefly, but was fired because he could not stand the pace. I'm not sold on Wills heart, he appeared to concede rather tamely in his last fights.

[Gatling]

That would seem reasonable.

A young Wills was a sparring partner for Johnson briefly, but was fired because he could not stand the pace. I'm not sold on Wills heart, he appeared to concede rather tamely in his last fights.

Yeah a lot of questionable antics. We have to factor the era though, I mean how many offers do you think Wills got to throw fights? I bet a lot.

[Kid Achilles]

Wills was ready for his shot at Dempsey, Jack and him were even photographed signing it, but the fight never happened due to lack of interest. Of course a lot of that was due to ugly racism. So Wills truly deserved his title shot, he was at least that good based on his accomplishments, but, could he have actually beaten Dempsey?

In my opinion no. Dempsey enjoyed swinging upward at a taller target and Wills would have been perfectly set for that murderous hook. I haven't watched extensive footage of him (and it doesn't really exist either) but I've seen him against Uzcudan and he really got mauled by a guy who was rugged but overall not a world beater.

I don't think Jack Johnson or Dempsey could ever get handled in the way Uzcudan got to him. Johnson for one was a man who really mastered his craft, an artist with the build of a strongman. He was so rich in boxing skill that he had brute strength but rarely needed to use it. Dempsey had honed instincts and considerable skills of his own, as well as a punch that most simply aren't blessed with.

Wills was a good contender who deserved his title shot but I doubt he could have beaten Dempsey. And he was nowhere near as masterful as Jack Johnson, who was so much better than his peers that he usually fought with a smile on his face.

[rightsideup]

was harry in his prime when he boxed sharkey