Did Hank Armstrong ever go up against a great boxer?

[BigStereotype]

armstrong would knock marquez out

Them's fighting words.

[Toney Loc]

No, you changing the parameters of you original post. And Armstrong was worlds better than the fighters you named, and Ross was much slicker than Marquez.

Not a chance. I've seen Ross and I've seen Marquez.

[Toney Loc]

If you can't tell Armstrong is far more skilled than Margarito, something is seriously wrong with you. The only guy to come close to Armstrong's skill set is Joe Frazier. He a bum too? And Armstrong is still a better technician than Frazier.

And I already told you Midget Wolgast was slick. Not my problem you have no idea who he is.

I seen all of Armstrong's fights on you tube and none of his opponents ever once employed any basic side to side movement or tried to turn him. They just stood there and would allow themselves to get backed up.

Frazier is an overrated one armed fighter. I don't rate him highly.

[Toney Loc]

Armstrong fought some of the best. Sugar Ray Robinson, Sammy Angott, Benny Bass, Chalky Wright, Fritie Zivic, Petey Sarron, Lou Ambers, Beau Jack, Lew Jenkins, Barney Ross, Erico Venturi, Leo Rodak, Ernie Roderick, Varias Milling, Tippy Larkin, Lew Massey, Pedro Montanez, Ceferino Garcia, Al Bummy Davis, Baby Arizmendi, Young Rodolfo Casanova, Davey Day, Lew Feldman, Willie Joyce, Frankie Klick, Juan Zurita, Mike Belloise and Midget Wolgast. All these fighters were either World Champions or were rated #1 at one time or another.

Of Armstrong's 181 fights, 109 were against fighters that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another, and 46 of them were either a World Champion or rated #1 at one time or another.

Both Larkin and Joyce were Great Slick pure boxers, as were many of the others.

I'll try to dig some of these films up and watch em later. Outside of the bold which on that list would you classify as slick boxers with lateral movement and counterpunching ability?

Thanks for the list.

:up:

[JAB5239]

I seen all of Armstrong's fights on you tube and none of his opponents ever once employed any basic side to side movement or tried to turn him. They just stood there and would allow themselves to get backed up.

Frazier is an overrated one armed fighter. I don't rate him highly.

This is false, as you can clearly see Ross was using lateral movement on to have Armstrong cut the ring off and continually throw punches.

And yes, Ross is a better fighter than Marquez.

[hhascup]

I'll try to dig some of these films up and watch em later. Outside of the bold which on that list would you classify as slick boxers with lateral movement and counterpunching ability?

Thanks for the list.

:up:

There aren't that many tapes on most of hese guys But I knew Tippy Larkin very well. In the last 10 years of his life, I took him to all the boxing functions and when he died I have the Eulogy.

Tippy beat Billy Graham, in fact he won 8 or 9 of the 10 rounds in that fight. Willie Joyce beat Ike Williams 3 times within 7 months. Sammy Angott was the 1st fighter to beat Willie Pep. Ross, Wolgast were others.

I have to Ring Announce the New Jersey Golden Gloves tonight and I have to leave pretty soon. Tomorrow, I will be announcing them at the Prudential Center.

Last Friday, I ring announced the Golden Gloves, Saturday I went to Bert Sugar's funeral and rung the bell in celabration of his life and Sunday I presented 5 Awards at the 1st ever New York Boxing Hall of Fame Awards Dinner in New York. I had the honor of talking about and inducting Tony Canzoneri, Gil Claney, Jake LaMotta, who I sat next to all afternoon, Benny Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson.

[Toney Loc]

This is false, as you can clearly see Ross was using lateral movement on to have Armstrong cut the ring off and continually throw punches.

And yes, Ross is a better fighter than Marquez.

Yeah. I don't agree on either point.

[greynotsoold]

As mentioned, Armstrong fought Willie Joyce and Tippy Larkin, both of whom were considered masterful boxers. As were Sammy Angott and Mike Belloise. Barney Ross is much better than you give him credit for, presumably after having watched him fight Armstrong, which was his last fight. He was good enough to have beaten Ceferino Garcia, whom Armstrong fought to a draw for the MW title, in a WW title defense. Ross fought that fight one-handed, having broken his right thumb during training. It is coinsidered one of boxing's great performances.
Two reasons why so many of Armstrong's fights look the same:
First, he imposed his will on the fight and made most everybody fight his fight. His physical limitations (lack of height, short reach etc)made him fight inside; his superhuman endurance and strength made him real hard to beat there. So he initiated up close high paced fights.
Second, many of his opponents thought he would be easy to hit and fought him in close to land more punches. Lou Ambers did this, so did Fritzie Zivic and they were both successful. (And, for the record, Armstrong was as rough and dirty as Zivic any day) This happened with Marciano, notably against Walcott and Charles. Both were expected to keep their distance and neither did. Both subsequently said it was because Marciano appeared so easy to hit. Problem is, it becomes a trial by fire.
See, you may be on to something. I believe that a guy that fought like James Toney would probably beat Armstrong by using his windmill style against him and countering him. But it would certainly not be easy because what made Armstrong great was his ability to impose his will onto a fight.

[JAB5239]

Yeah. I don't agree on either point.

You don't have to agree with my opinion about Ross being the better fighter, but you can't change the fact he was trying to use lateral movement against Armstrong. Its right there on film, bro. You seem to be looking for a way to discredit Armstrong and are grasping a straws in the face of all the evidence you've been provided with.

[Toney Loc]

There aren't that many tapes on most of hese guys But I knew Tippy Larkin very well. In the last 10 years of his life, I took him to all the boxing functions and when he died I have the Eulogy.

Tippy beat Billy Graham, in fact he won 8 or 9 of the 10 rounds in that fight. Willie Joyce beat Ike Williams 3 times within 7 months. Sammy Angott was the 1st fighter to beat Willie Pep. Ross, Wolgast were others.

I have to Ring Announce the New Jersey Golden Gloves tonight and I have to leave pretty soon. Tomorrow, I will be announcing them at the Prudential Center.

Last Friday, I ring announced the Golden Gloves, Saturday I went to Bert Sugar's funeral and rung the bell in celabration of his life and Sunday I presented 5 Awards at the 1st ever New York Boxing Hall of Fame Awards Dinner in New York. I had the honor of talking about and inducting Tony Canzoneri, Gil Claney, Jake LaMotta, who I sat next to all afternoon, Benny Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson.

Alright thanks for your info, but this is kind of moot if there is no footage of those fights.

I like to use film to judge because I've noticed that a lot of the old timers tend to mythologize their eras. I'm not accusing you of this, but it seems to be a prevalent groupthink that fighters from the past are just better without any critical considerations.

If Armstrong were around today, he wouldn't have 100+ fights, not because of him but because the sport is different now. If Katsidis or JMM were around back then, they'd probably both have over 100 fights.

I have a hard time accepting greatness on pure faith. Especially when the footage I have seen doesn't reflect the praise heaped on these guys.