Which middleweights would you pick to beat 1951 Robinson?

[Barn]

Even if he had serious power at middleweight I doubt it would make much difference, Robinson's chin was superb.

But as Turpin showed......Robinson could be outboxed on a bad night.

I'm not talking about knockouts. I'm talking punching hard enough to keep Robinson wary. Leonard can't do that.

Who did Leonard ever outbox at Middlweight? Before it's mentioned he never outboxed the Marvelous one.

[StarshipTrooper]

People forget the reason Turpin was able to beat Robinson in the first place wasn't simply because Robinson was "off" that night (he was) but also because Turpin was an awkward herky-jerky type of fighter that was impossible to time properly. Even in a losing effort he could make the victor look bad. Leonard really wasn't that sort of fighter at any point in his career. He could beat you certainly, but he was more of a classical boxer-puncher than a quirky spoiler.

Poet

[Sugarj]

I'm not talking about knockouts. I'm talking punching hard enough to keep Robinson wary. Leonard can't do that.

Who did Leonard ever outbox at Middlweight? Before it's mentioned he never outboxed the Marvelous one.

I think Leonard only boxed twice at middleweight (Hagler................& Camacho when post prime). But don't descend into nuthuggerdom, your better than that Barn. I know your the biggest Hagler fan and that you think he beat Leonard......but to my eyes and the majority of fans not to mention two judges, Leonard did outbox him in at least seven rounds of a close fight. He looked pretty good doing it too. Great handspeed, combinations, fast footwork and pretty elusive..... It would be a tough fight for many a great middleweight. Even the rounds that Hagler won were more on aggression/pressure than actually outboxing or outlanding Leonard for that matter.

Leonard wasn't exactly feather fisted at middleweight and above. Granted he caused Hagler no issue with his power, but he did seem to punch pretty pity pat that night (probably his gameplan....no one was knocking Hagler out!). Ray's power didn't look too pity pat against Hearns or Lalonde up a further division at super middleweight. The Lalonde knockout looked pretty savage despite his opponent's real lack of credentials at world level. A heavy punch is a heavy punch. But I doubt that Leonard's power would matter in a fight with Robinson; if Robinson had an off night, Leonard would I think have a good chance at a decision win.

Try watching Robinson vs Turpin 1, I think you'll be surprised by how poor Robinson looked that night......Leonard beats that guy! I know when to accept that my idols have an off night or look beatable. Hee hee

[Sugarj]

People forget the reason Turpin was able to beat Robinson in the first place wasn't simply because Robinson was "off" that night (he was) but also because Turpin was an awkward herky-jerky type of fighter that was impossible to time properly. Even in a losing effort he could make the victor look bad. Leonard really wasn't that sort of fighter at any point in his career. He could beat you certainly, but he was more of a classical boxer-puncher than a quirky spoiler.

Poet

Who knows?

As you say, Robinson was 'off' against Turpin. I just wouldn't like to throw that Robinson in with many ATG middleweights, whether he was thrown by Turpin's style or not.

I rate Turpin as a very good middleweight. I was surprised how well he did in the return too.....and Ray was clearly well up for revenge, great fight!

[StarshipTrooper]

Who knows?

As you say, Robinson was 'off' against Turpin. I just wouldn't like to throw that Robinson in with many ATG middleweights, whether he was thrown by Turpin's style or not.

I rate Turpin as a very good middleweight. I was surprised how well he did in the return too.....and Ray was clearly well up for revenge, great fight!

I'm not downing Turpin: He was a solid fighter and worthy of a title shot. What I am saying his peculiar style of fighting was impossible to look good against unless you could spark him out quick.....and I wouldn't bet on that happening. Point is, I don't think anybody would have looked good against Turpin even if they won.

Poet

[Ray Corso]

I'm not sure why Leonard would even be mentioned as a middleweight. He was done by then and the only reason he did well enough in the Hagler fight was he waited those YEARS prior so Hagler fought a few more fights and at the end you have fights that are tuffer than they would be in your prime. Leonard was beaten up by Camacho, Camacho Really!!! That guy couldn't break an egg yet he beat Duran too, twice if I remember!!!! Let me tell you all something, nothing like a Camacho would ever come close to beating Sugarman, no way no how. As for Leonard in the welter division he could be a problem for Sugar man because of his speed of foot and hand. Speed is a problem when your looking to time someone weither its your punches to be thrown or theirs coming to you. I think Leonard could be a problem until Sugar boxed and pressured him for some rounds. If Leonard moved like he could the result might take longer to resolve, I do believe Sugar gets him but Leonard might sneak to the distance. You can't totally under estimate talent thats at a high level and Leonard was a supreme athlete.
Hagler vs Sugarman would be interesting the difference would be that Leonard did hit him fairly easily and I think Marvin gets hit with most of those shots even in his prime years. When Hagler gets hit often or hard he abandons his boxing skills and turns back his clock to Philly times. Thats when when Sugarmans chances gets better. Someone stalking Robinson and dropping their hands to punch usually get hit and Sugarman can hurt any fighter and if he gets you really timed your going out. LaMotta always said Sugar didn't drop him but he was walking around knocked out on his feet a few times. I love Marvin but when he looses his cool hes very predictable he learned tuff lessons from another name stealer known as Sugar but Seals could fight and Marvin went back and got even with Ray. Theres a fighter I never hear mentioned here. Seals was good, and a big time crowd pleaser.
If Leonard had the guts he could have faced Marvin years before all the "oldies" bouts took place but he knew better. Let the guy fight some more maybe loose a step or two or three and thats what happened. Sugarman rules, theres a reason boxing historians think he is the number one boxer/puncher of all time. Look at his accomplishments, who he fought, when he fought, how often he fought, ducked NO one, gave return mastches ALWAYS. Fought an animal like Lamotta 5 times!!! Ali was great but not the Greatest, that was Sugar Ray there should be no reason to say his last name but so many think if its before their time its not reality. HA! Boxing has evolved but greatness doesn't come around very often, especially when it last 20 years and hundreds of fights. Remember 100 & 0 before a defeat!!! Only one man..the real Sugar Ray. Ray.

[Barn]

I'm not sure why Leonard would even be mentioned as a middleweight. He was done by then and the only reason he did well enough in the Hagler fight was he waited those YEARS prior so Hagler fought a few more fights and at the end you have fights that are tuffer than they would be in your prime. Leonard was beaten up by Camacho, Camacho Really!!! That guy couldn't beark an egg yet he beat Duran too, twice if I remember!!!! Let me tell you all something, nothing like a Camacho would ever come close to beating Sugarman, no way no how. As for Leonard in the welter division he could be a problem for Sugar man because of his speed of foot and hand. Speed is a problem when your looking to time someone weither its your punches to be thrown or theirs coming to you. I think Leonard could be a problem until Sugar boxed and pressured him for some rounds. If Leonard moved like he could the result might take longer to resolve, I do believe Sugar gets him but Leonard might sneak to the distance. You can't totally under estimate talent thats at a high level and Leonard was a supreme athlete.
Hagler vs Sugarman would be interesting the difference would be that Leonard did hit him fairly easily and I think Marvin gets hit with most of those shots even in his prime years. When Hagler get hits often or hard he abandons his boxing skills and turns back his clock to Philly times. Thats when when Sugarmans chances gets better. Someone stalking Robinson and dropping their hands to punch usually get hit and Sugarman can hurt any fighter and if he gets you really timed your going out. LaMotta always said Sugar didn't drop him but he was walking around knocked out on his feet a few times. I love Marvin but when he looses his cool hes very predictable he learned tuff lessons from another name stealer known as Sugar but Seals could fight and Marvin went back and got even with Ray. Theres a fighter I never hear mentioned here. Seals was good, and a big time crowd pleaser.
If Leonard had the guts he could have faced Marvin years before all the "oldies" bouts took place but he knew better. Let the guy fight some more maybe loose a step or two or three and thats what happened. Ray.

Hagler in his prime fought a very disciplined fight more often than not IMO.

[StarshipTrooper]

I'm not sure why Leonard would even be mentioned as a middleweight. He was done by then and the only reason he did well enough in the Hagler fight was he waited those YEARS prior so Hagler fought a few more fights and at the end you have fights that are tuffer than they would be in your prime. Leonard was beaten up by Camacho, Camacho Really!!! That guy couldn't beark an egg yet he beat Duran too, twice if I remember!!!! Let me tell you all something, nothing like a Camacho would ever come close to beating Sugarman, no way no how. As for Leonard in the welter division he could be a problem for Sugar man because of his speed of foot and hand. Speed is a problem when your looking to time someone weither its your punches to be thrown or theirs coming to you. I think Leonard could be a problem until Sugar boxed and pressured him for some rounds. If Leonard moved like he could the result might take longer to resolve, I do believe Sugar gets him but Leonard might sneak to the distance. You can't totally under estimate talent thats at a high level and Leonard was a supreme athlete.
Hagler vs Sugarman would be interesting the difference would be that Leonard did hit him fairly easily and I think Marvin gets hit with most of those shots even in his prime years. When Hagler get hits often or hard he abandons his boxing skills and turns back his clock to Philly times. Thats when when Sugarmans chances gets better. Someone stalking Robinson and dropping their hands to punch usually get hit and Sugarman can hurt any fighter and if he gets you really timed your going out. LaMotta always said Sugar didn't drop him but he was walking around knocked out on his feet a few times. I love Marvin but when he looses his cool hes very predictable he learned tuff lessons from another name stealer known as Sugar but Seals could fight and Marvin went back and got even with Ray. Theres a fighter I never hear mentioned here. Seals was good, and a big time crowd pleaser.
If Leonard had the guts he could have faced Marvin years before all the "oldies" bouts took place but he knew better. Let the guy fight some more maybe loose a step or two or three and thats what happened. Ray.

I'd point out that at the end of HIS career, when he was washed up, Ray Robinson was losing to the likes of 55-16 Stan Harrington. When a fighter fights long past his prime losses like that happen. To ANY fighter. Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, and yes, Ray Robinson.

Poet

[Barn]

I think Leonard only boxed twice at middleweight (Hagler................& Camacho when post prime). But don't descend into nuthuggerdom, your better than that Barn. I know your the biggest Hagler fan and that you think he beat Leonard......but to my eyes and the majority of fans not to mention two judges, Leonard did outbox him in at least seven rounds of a close fight. He looked pretty good doing it too. Great handspeed, combinations, fast footwork and pretty elusive..... It would be a tough fight for many a great middleweight. Even the rounds that Hagler won were more on aggression/pressure than actually outboxing or outlanding Leonard for that matter.

Leonard wasn't exactly feather fisted at middleweight and above. Granted he caused Hagler no issue with his power, but he did seem to punch pretty pity pat that night (probably his gameplan....no one was knocking Hagler out!). Ray's power didn't look too pity pat against Hearns or Lalonde up a further division at super middleweight. The Lalonde knockout looked pretty savage despite his opponent's real lack of credentials at world level. A heavy punch is a heavy punch. But I doubt that Leonard's power would matter in a fight with Robinson; if Robinson had an off night, Leonard would I think have a good chance at a decision win.

Try watching Robinson vs Turpin 1, I think you'll be surprised by how poor Robinson looked that night......Leonard beats that guy! I know when to accept that my idols have an off night or look beatable. Hee hee

HAGLER WAS ALWAYS MARVELOUS AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

I've never seen the Lalonde fight. Added to the list.

[Ray Corso]

......the likes of Stan Harrington!!!as if hes a bum, are you kiddiing me or you just don't know what the hell your talking about. Harrington was a top flight fighter for ten years straight, he beat and lost to ALL the top fighters back then. The guy was tuff as hell and had NO fear who he fought and fought ALL the best. Being 55 & 16 or what ever the hell his record was means nothing back then. Only today does a guy need to be undefeated or have 2 or 3 looses or hes a bust. These kids today fight twice a year once there records are built up fighting "dead people" !!! Take away HBO and years ago closed circuit and try fighting on a "live circuit" then you'll see real fighters fighting hard in every second of every round.
Heres the thing Mr. Poet, Sugar Ray was fighting "young up and coming guys not old guys like Leonard did. Sugar Ray fought top contenders not pretenders. To disgrace a man like Harrington tells me everything I need to know about your knowledge of boxing from that era. Go look at his record, the guy was a pro fighting a pro circuit his wins and looses were against some pretty well known fighters. Well their known by people who know boxing anyways. Obviously not you. Ray