Jack Johnson would beat Ali

[Sugarj]

Johnson's chances improve over a longer fight distance. In a fight scheduled for say 45 rounds Johnson was a master at slowing pace, saving energy, clinching etc.

In those circumstances it would be unwise for Ali to waste energy on firing fast combinations and dancing.

Prime Johnson seemed to have a decent enough chin and enough defensive smarts so I don't see Ali easily knocking him out and in terms of size Ali wasn't that much bigger or heavier than Johnson in his championship days.....so theres no clear advantage there.

Granted, over 12 or 15 rounds I pick a very clear Ali decision win. But I think that it'd be churlish to assume that Johnson has no chance over a much longer fight distance.

[La_Vibora]

Some of you guys highly under rate Jack here. Jack really was ahead of his time back then. His style would give any fighter of any era problems, but I think Ali's athleticism would ultimately be the deciding factor.

[New England]

Johnson has "guts", a thing you cant measure. Johnsons willpower will overpower Alis skill........

nice

lets start burning books as well.


and
you really dont think muhammad ali was tough?

have you ever even seen the thrilla in manilla?

[Terry A]

Where to even begin....

I think Jack johnson would outsmart and outtough Ali. Jack johnson was just a too tough son of a *****. Jack Johnson is also VERY underrated...

Very respectfully strongly disagree.

JJ was one of the most OVERrated fighters ever. He gets loads of love for being the 1st black HW champ, however, he ducked & dodged Harry Wills (the REAL best black heavyweight from that era with Johnson, Langford, McVea, Jeanette, etc).

Let's dissect some facts from JJ's record. Remember, these are FACTS, they really happened. Not speculation.

Joe Choysnki, all 160 some pounds of him, flat out KO'ed JJ cold. Snoring on the canvas out cold.

Stanley Ketchel, another middleweight, knocked him down in another of JJ's battle of the heavyweight vs a middleweight.

Bob Fitzsimmons's SPARRING PARTNER Hank Griffin, a lightheavyweight, beat JJ and then they fought two more draws.

While continueing to try to pad his record by fighting middleweights, Jack O'Briend (162 1/2 lbs) fought JJ to a draw.

When JJ was 21, a fighter simply known as "Klon***e" KO'ed JJ in 5 rounds. This was not a "KO by" like when JJ took his dive against Willard, this was a real JJ was knocked out KO. In the rematch with "Klon***e, JJ did better, he fought to a 20 round draw....

By the way, when Ali was 21 years old, he was already an Olympic Gold Medal winner and was 18-0, his 19th and 20th wins being KO's of Sonny Liston.
By contrast, when JJ was 21, his reord was 2-1. His record after his first 13 fights was 4-3-4 w/ 2NC. Jack Johnson won 4 of his 1st 13 fights.

Instead of stopping there, I'd like to add just one more FACT. The "great" Marvin Hart, perhaps one of the less known heavyweight champions ever, soundly beat JJ when Johnson was 27 years old. Here are some excerpts from that fight.......

"Hart was game and kept boring into the big colored man all through the fight. Johnson's much-vaunted cleverness did not count for much. While he was able to hit Hart frequently, his blows did not seem to damage the white man from Kentucky........Hart managed to deal the only effective blow in the eleventh round, when he landed a right swing on Johnson's jaw that staggered the black man and nearly knocked him over. Referee Greggains stated that he gave the decision to Hart, because all through the fight Hart did all the forcing and leading. According to Greggains, if Hart had not pursued his tactics there would have been no fight, as Johnson merely contented himself with countering. Hart's face was battered to a pulp, but Johnson's blows did not seem to have much sting to them. Johnson did a great deal of uppercutting, but Hart covered up and the blows did not seem to hurt him." (Washington Post)

Now be let's be real here. If Marvin Hart's "pressure" was enough to whip JJ, what would the heat that Joe Frazier would put on him do to JJ??? And if he was knocked simple by middleweights, what would Sonny Liston, George Foreman and Earnie Shavers do to him???

By the way, what the heck is so "tough" about a heavyweight who keeps losing to middleweights?

As for the "tough" part of your post, you don't think that what Ali withstood against Frazier in Manilla was TOUGH??? Or taking the bombs of a prime George Foreman was tough??? or beating killers like Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams and Earnie Shavers was tough??? Or standing in there with Larry Holmes and refusing to go down or quit was not TOUGH???

What great act or display of "toughness" did JJ show that stands out to you? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I really want to see or learn what I must have missed regarding the "toughness" of JJ in comparision to what Ali did.

It's no accident that the great majority of people who know the fight game pick Ali and Joe Louis as the top two heavyweights ever. Only a very few would go with a man who made his living trying to win against middleweights, dodging the great Harry Wills and had 13 losses in his career, 6 by KO.

Ali, again by contrast, was 55-2 after beating Earnie Shavers. He lost one fight out of 61 by KO, that being when a peak Larry Holmes beat on him for 10rounds before the fight was stopped with Ali still on his feet.

We all have differeing views and opinions on who's who in the pecking order of fighters. But Jack Johnson has always been my easy pick for most over-rated heavyweight ever. It's "tough" for me to read blanket statements about just how great a world beater this man was, despite a mountain of facts saying otherwise.

Mike Tyson77, please don't take this as a personal attack against you or your knowledge. You're a good member here with lots of insightful input to add. I just think that this one post of yours was not, (how to say this delicately).....not one you may want to time capsule!

[Barn]

Very respectfully strongly disagree.

JJ was one of the most OVERrated fighters ever. He gets loads of love for being the 1st black HW champ, however, he ducked & dodged Harry Wills (the REAL best black heavyweight from that era with Johnson, Langford, McVea, Jeanette, etc).

Let's dissect some facts from JJ's record. Remember, these are FACTS, they really happened. Not speculation.

Joe Choysnki, all 160 some pounds of him, flat out KO'ed JJ cold. Snoring on the canvas out cold.

Stanley Ketchel, another middleweight, knocked him down in another of JJ's battle of the heavyweight vs a middleweight.

Bob Fitzsimmons's SPARRING PARTNER Hank Griffin, a lightheavyweight, beat JJ and then they fought two more draws.

While continueing to try to pad his record by fighting middleweights, Jack O'Briend (162 1/2 lbs) fought JJ to a draw.

When JJ was 21, a fighter simply known as "Klon***e" KO'ed JJ in 5 rounds. This was not a "KO by" like when JJ took his dive against Willard, this was a real JJ was knocked out KO. In the rematch with "Klon***e, JJ did better, he fought to a 20 round draw....

By the way, when Ali was 21 years old, he was already an Olympic Gold Medal winner and was 18-0, his 19th and 20th wins being KO's of Sonny Liston.
By contrast, when JJ was 21, his reord was 2-1. His record after his first 13 fights was 4-3-4 w/ 2NC. Jack Johnson won 4 of his 1st 13 fights.

Instead of stopping there, I'd like to add just one more FACT. The "great" Marvin Hart, perhaps one of the less known heavyweight champions ever, soundly beat JJ when Johnson was 27 years old. Here are some excerpts from that fight.......

"Hart was game and kept boring into the big colored man all through the fight. Johnson's much-vaunted cleverness did not count for much. While he was able to hit Hart frequently, his blows did not seem to damage the white man from Kentucky........Hart managed to deal the only effective blow in the eleventh round, when he landed a right swing on Johnson's jaw that staggered the black man and nearly knocked him over. Referee Greggains stated that he gave the decision to Hart, because all through the fight Hart did all the forcing and leading. According to Greggains, if Hart had not pursued his tactics there would have been no fight, as Johnson merely contented himself with countering. Hart's face was battered to a pulp, but Johnson's blows did not seem to have much sting to them. Johnson did a great deal of uppercutting, but Hart covered up and the blows did not seem to hurt him." (Washington Post)

Now be let's be real here. If Marvin Hart's "pressure" was enough to whip JJ, what would the heat that Joe Frazier would put on him do to JJ??? And if he was knocked simple by middleweights, what would Sonny Liston, George Foreman and Earnie Shavers do to him???

By the way, what the heck is so "tough" about a heavyweight who keeps losing to middleweights?

As for the "tough" part of your post, you don't think that what Ali withstood against Frazier in Manilla was TOUGH??? Or taking the bombs of a prime George Foreman was tough??? or beating killers like Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams and Earnie Shavers was tough??? Or standing in there with Larry Holmes and refusing to go down or quit was not TOUGH???

What great act or display of "toughness" did JJ show that stands out to you? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I really want to see or learn what I must have missed regarding the "toughness" of JJ in comparision to what Ali did.

It's no accident that the great majority of people who know the fight game pick Ali and Joe Louis as the top two heavyweights ever. Only a very few would go with a man who made his living trying to win against middleweights, dodging the great Harry Wills and had 13 losses in his career, 6 by KO.

Ali, again by contrast, was 55-2 after beating Earnie Shavers. He lost one fight out of 61 by KO, that being when a peak Larry Holmes beat on him for 10rounds before the fight was stopped with Ali still on his feet.

We all have differeing views and opinions on who's who in the pecking order of fighters. But Jack Johnson has always been my easy pick for most over-rated heavyweight ever. It's "tough" for me to read blanket statements about just how great a world beater this man was, despite a mountain of facts saying otherwise.

Mike Tyson77, please don't take this as a personal attack against you or your knowledge. You're a good member here with lots of insightful input to add. I just think that this one post of yours was not, (how to say this delicately).....not one you may want to time capsule!

damn straight... lower half top 10 max.

[JAB5239]

Very respectfully strongly disagree.

JJ was one of the most OVERrated fighters ever. He gets loads of love for being the 1st black HW champ, however, he ducked & dodged Harry Wills (the REAL best black heavyweight from that era with Johnson, Langford, McVea, Jeanette, etc).

Let's dissect some facts from JJ's record. Remember, these are FACTS, they really happened. Not speculation.

Joe Choysnki, all 160 some pounds of him, flat out KO'ed JJ cold. Snoring on the canvas out cold.

Stanley Ketchel, another middleweight, knocked him down in another of JJ's battle of the heavyweight vs a middleweight.

Bob Fitzsimmons's SPARRING PARTNER Hank Griffin, a lightheavyweight, beat JJ and then they fought two more draws.

While continueing to try to pad his record by fighting middleweights, Jack O'Briend (162 1/2 lbs) fought JJ to a draw.

When JJ was 21, a fighter simply known as "Klon***e" KO'ed JJ in 5 rounds. This was not a "KO by" like when JJ took his dive against Willard, this was a real JJ was knocked out KO. In the rematch with "Klon***e, JJ did better, he fought to a 20 round draw....

By the way, when Ali was 21 years old, he was already an Olympic Gold Medal winner and was 18-0, his 19th and 20th wins being KO's of Sonny Liston.
By contrast, when JJ was 21, his reord was 2-1. His record after his first 13 fights was 4-3-4 w/ 2NC. Jack Johnson won 4 of his 1st 13 fights.

Instead of stopping there, I'd like to add just one more FACT. The "great" Marvin Hart, perhaps one of the less known heavyweight champions ever, soundly beat JJ when Johnson was 27 years old. Here are some excerpts from that fight.......

"Hart was game and kept boring into the big colored man all through the fight. Johnson's much-vaunted cleverness did not count for much. While he was able to hit Hart frequently, his blows did not seem to damage the white man from Kentucky........Hart managed to deal the only effective blow in the eleventh round, when he landed a right swing on Johnson's jaw that staggered the black man and nearly knocked him over. Referee Greggains stated that he gave the decision to Hart, because all through the fight Hart did all the forcing and leading. According to Greggains, if Hart had not pursued his tactics there would have been no fight, as Johnson merely contented himself with countering. Hart's face was battered to a pulp, but Johnson's blows did not seem to have much sting to them. Johnson did a great deal of uppercutting, but Hart covered up and the blows did not seem to hurt him." (Washington Post)

Now be let's be real here. If Marvin Hart's "pressure" was enough to whip JJ, what would the heat that Joe Frazier would put on him do to JJ??? And if he was knocked simple by middleweights, what would Sonny Liston, George Foreman and Earnie Shavers do to him???

By the way, what the heck is so "tough" about a heavyweight who keeps losing to middleweights?

As for the "tough" part of your post, you don't think that what Ali withstood against Frazier in Manilla was TOUGH??? Or taking the bombs of a prime George Foreman was tough??? or beating killers like Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams and Earnie Shavers was tough??? Or standing in there with Larry Holmes and refusing to go down or quit was not TOUGH???

What great act or display of "toughness" did JJ show that stands out to you? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I really want to see or learn what I must have missed regarding the "toughness" of JJ in comparision to what Ali did.

It's no accident that the great majority of people who know the fight game pick Ali and Joe Louis as the top two heavyweights ever. Only a very few would go with a man who made his living trying to win against middleweights, dodging the great Harry Wills and had 13 losses in his career, 6 by KO.

Ali, again by contrast, was 55-2 after beating Earnie Shavers. He lost one fight out of 61 by KO, that being when a peak Larry Holmes beat on him for 10rounds before the fight was stopped with Ali still on his feet.

We all have differeing views and opinions on who's who in the pecking order of fighters. But Jack Johnson has always been my easy pick for most over-rated heavyweight ever. It's "tough" for me to read blanket statements about just how great a world beater this man was, despite a mountain of facts saying otherwise.

Mike Tyson77, please don't take this as a personal attack against you or your knowledge. You're a good member here with lots of insightful input to add. I just think that this one post of yours was not, (how to say this delicately).....not one you may want to time capsule!

A very well researched post.

[Sugarj]

Very respectfully strongly disagree.

JJ was one of the most OVERrated fighters ever. He gets loads of love for being the 1st black HW champ, however, he ducked & dodged Harry Wills (the REAL best black heavyweight from that era with Johnson, Langford, McVea, Jeanette, etc).

Let's dissect some facts from JJ's record. Remember, these are FACTS, they really happened. Not speculation.

Joe Choysnki, all 160 some pounds of him, flat out KO'ed JJ cold. Snoring on the canvas out cold.

Stanley Ketchel, another middleweight, knocked him down in another of JJ's battle of the heavyweight vs a middleweight.

Bob Fitzsimmons's SPARRING PARTNER Hank Griffin, a lightheavyweight, beat JJ and then they fought two more draws.

While continueing to try to pad his record by fighting middleweights, Jack O'Briend (162 1/2 lbs) fought JJ to a draw.

When JJ was 21, a fighter simply known as "Klon***e" KO'ed JJ in 5 rounds. This was not a "KO by" like when JJ took his dive against Willard, this was a real JJ was knocked out KO. In the rematch with "Klon***e, JJ did better, he fought to a 20 round draw....

By the way, when Ali was 21 years old, he was already an Olympic Gold Medal winner and was 18-0, his 19th and 20th wins being KO's of Sonny Liston.
By contrast, when JJ was 21, his reord was 2-1. His record after his first 13 fights was 4-3-4 w/ 2NC. Jack Johnson won 4 of his 1st 13 fights.

Instead of stopping there, I'd like to add just one more FACT. The "great" Marvin Hart, perhaps one of the less known heavyweight champions ever, soundly beat JJ when Johnson was 27 years old. Here are some excerpts from that fight.......

"Hart was game and kept boring into the big colored man all through the fight. Johnson's much-vaunted cleverness did not count for much. While he was able to hit Hart frequently, his blows did not seem to damage the white man from Kentucky........Hart managed to deal the only effective blow in the eleventh round, when he landed a right swing on Johnson's jaw that staggered the black man and nearly knocked him over. Referee Greggains stated that he gave the decision to Hart, because all through the fight Hart did all the forcing and leading. According to Greggains, if Hart had not pursued his tactics there would have been no fight, as Johnson merely contented himself with countering. Hart's face was battered to a pulp, but Johnson's blows did not seem to have much sting to them. Johnson did a great deal of uppercutting, but Hart covered up and the blows did not seem to hurt him." (Washington Post)

Now be let's be real here. If Marvin Hart's "pressure" was enough to whip JJ, what would the heat that Joe Frazier would put on him do to JJ??? And if he was knocked simple by middleweights, what would Sonny Liston, George Foreman and Earnie Shavers do to him???

By the way, what the heck is so "tough" about a heavyweight who keeps losing to middleweights?

As for the "tough" part of your post, you don't think that what Ali withstood against Frazier in Manilla was TOUGH??? Or taking the bombs of a prime George Foreman was tough??? or beating killers like Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams and Earnie Shavers was tough??? Or standing in there with Larry Holmes and refusing to go down or quit was not TOUGH???

What great act or display of "toughness" did JJ show that stands out to you? I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I really want to see or learn what I must have missed regarding the "toughness" of JJ in comparision to what Ali did.

It's no accident that the great majority of people who know the fight game pick Ali and Joe Louis as the top two heavyweights ever. Only a very few would go with a man who made his living trying to win against middleweights, dodging the great Harry Wills and had 13 losses in his career, 6 by KO.

Ali, again by contrast, was 55-2 after beating Earnie Shavers. He lost one fight out of 61 by KO, that being when a peak Larry Holmes beat on him for 10rounds before the fight was stopped with Ali still on his feet.

We all have differeing views and opinions on who's who in the pecking order of fighters. But Jack Johnson has always been my easy pick for most over-rated heavyweight ever. It's "tough" for me to read blanket statements about just how great a world beater this man was, despite a mountain of facts saying otherwise.

Mike Tyson77, please don't take this as a personal attack against you or your knowledge. You're a good member here with lots of insightful input to add. I just think that this one post of yours was not, (how to say this delicately).....not one you may want to time capsule!

Monster post matey.....

But we do have to remember Ali/Clay's distinguished amateur pedigree from the age of 12 onwards. He fought over 120 amateur fights. Its unfair to compare Ali at 21 with the 21 year old Johnson who did not have anything other than Battle Royales and harsh matching with established pros like Choynski when he was simply learning the game.

Johnson's prime came when he was a fully grown and seasoned 30-32 years old around 210Lbs. With a suitable amateur career he may heave peaked earlier.........but he didn't have that luxury. When Johnson was struggling with middleweights in his early 20s he was a much lighter and spindlier man himself, often hungry, oversexed or hungover (granted his poor performances could be blamed on himself! Ha ha).

I have no doubts that the 1908-1910 Johnson would have dealt easily with Choynski, Griffin, Hart. As for Ketchell, we all know the story that Johnson was told to carry the smaller man for the benefit of the movie cameras......and the result with the very next punch after rising from the knockdown. Johnson could have done that in round one if he had so chosen!

If you take away Ali's amateur career experience I fear that Henry Cooper and Doug Jones (not much heavier than light heavyweights) might have easily beaten him.

But never mind, I do favour Ali in a head to head with Johnson. But in a fight scheduled for 25+ rounds? I'd be nervous for Ali if Johnson was still there by round 20.

[The_Demon]

Johnson has "guts", a thing you cant measure. Johnsons willpower will overpower Alis skill........

Your making out as if Ali is some sort of pansy who folded at the first sign of adversity-he was one of if not the toughest Heavyweight of all time.I dont think anybody underrates JJ but i think you are overrating him,id give him very little chance of beating a prime Ali

[Rossman]

Ali it appeared could be beaten, but each time he fiound a way to win. It would not be that hard against Johnson.

[Mike Tyson77]

I love Jack Johnson. The KKK once sent him a note saying they would kill him if he beat jim jeffrys, Johnson just said "Then go on and kill me cause imma knock that white boy out!"



1910 America WAS very different from 1973 America...